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Hello from David

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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2014, 05:49:55 am »

Dear David,
     I was traveling between Taipei and Bangkok, and then running around Bangkok yesterday and today.
I just read your intro, and it is very good.
     Welcome to the Forum!
     Ma Shaoxian at his best is as good as his uncle, Ma Shaoxuan.
George, could you please post on this thread both sides of  A-1 and C-3 from "Worlds"?
I'd really appreciate it. I actually have two more, but they are  not illustrated anywhere by me.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2014, 09:57:42 am »

Hello Joey,

Thank you for taking the time to read my introduction and asking George to post more information.

I had read a few threads from this site on interior painted, stone, and glass bottles. Very amazed by your photographic like knowledge and recall. Thank you for being so willing to share knowledge, I really learned a lot from your posting and enjoy reading your stories.

Also find it very amusing the way you handled a potential scammer on one of the thread, the lady with a rose quartz bottle. I used something similar when a seller on Etsy tried to sell me her mother's set of treasured bottle with a sob story+time pressure to see a dealer the next business day and I kept ask her to take to her antique dealer and get an appraisal first. You really had me going there after she posted her "jade". LOL  Cheesy

Warm regards,
David
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2014, 10:16:56 am »

Dear David,
     I am happy to encourage new collectors,and to warn about possible pitfalls.
When I started in 1970, at age 13, I was assisted by a group of more veteran collectors, who tried to help me succeed. I want to pass on the assistance.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2014, 11:02:54 am »

Hi Joey,

That is a great spirit to have and a way to give back to this area that you enjoyed so much. I agree that it is one of the key difference between a strong western culture versus my more secretive eastern culture that focus more on blood relationships.

But, it will be interesting to see if after another 100-200 years whether the current values of free sharing of information will still be maintained. I don't know Chinese history well, as I was western educated... but I did notice that most successful Chinese dynasty lasts 300-600 years. And most do have a golden age at the beginning where I think knowledge is shared and absorbed and used creatively. Then towards middle to late, when wealth and power accumulates in a smaller and smaller % of the population, the need to guard trade secret to maintain a competitive edge takes over.

I prefer the western idea of sharing knowledge, and hope we can stay this way for my kid's sake.

I will thank you in advance, as I do see myself asking more questions and posting more items (may or may not be snuff bottles) that I had already accumulated. It is too bad that I did not take up this interest while I was younger, as I recall seeing these bottles for sale in night market stalls, Jade market stalls, and "road side" stalls in Taiwan when I was a kid.

David
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2014, 07:18:20 pm »

Dear David,
     Successful cultures over longterm, ALWAYS share knowledge.
     And I speak as a Jew, with over 3,850 years of continuous knowledge, and always shared. We have been brought low by invaders or persecution, but even then, short of total population destruction, such as the Nazis attempted between 1933-1945 ( but did not succeed, Thank G-D), we bounce back, stronger than before. We are now the strongest military and cohesive cultural power in the Middle East, and a vibrant democracy, the only one in Western Asia.
     It is not a Western concept; it is a concept Given by G-D to Israel (the nation) to share with all G-D's children.
     It has been most successful where allowed to be successful, but in the long term, it is ALWAYS successful. And Jews gravitate toward the cultural milieu that will give us the freedom to be successful. We are sort of like canaries in a mine. If the canary dies, the air is getting too bad to breathe.
     When a place starts persecuting Jews, you know it is only a matter of time before your time will come too.
     Best,
      Joey
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2014, 09:17:41 pm »

Hi Joey,

I am a little unsure how to respond to that, as I did not know you feel that strongly. Or perhaps that is the cornerstone for you.

I hope the nasty things that happened in the past, will not be repeated.

Kind Regards,
David

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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2014, 10:51:50 pm »


George, could you please post on this thread both sides of  A-1 and C-3 from "Worlds"?


Sorry for the late reply..

This first one painted 1904, and the second ( C3 ) painted 1936.



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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2014, 10:57:17 pm »

Dear David,
     Sorry if I was too intense, but I DO feel strongly about it. It comes from my national and family history (my late father left his Polish village in 1933 with 3,800+ Jews and 200 Polish Catholics residing in it. In 1945, 160 Poles had survived (20% death rate), while only 127 Jews survived (97% death rate). ).
        And today , we are again targeted. Israel is treated as the most evil country in the world. Not Iran, not North Korea, not IS or Saudi Arabia, or Communist China or Russia. Israel.
The difference is, this time we can tell the whole world to F--- Off. It's a good feeling, as Martha Stewart would say.   Grin Cheesy
Best,
 Joey
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2014, 11:49:32 pm »

Wow, those are beautiful! Thank you George and Joey for posting it.

He actually took an incense bath to purify himself before working on the first bottle each time or just before writing the sutra? 

Either way, this one must be the most special bottle of all his work.

It takes 32 years to improve from one set to the other, and this is a gifted master... no wonder the price. Then I guess a bottle with a beautiful cursive script is most likely not possible.

Hi Joey,

With a personal history like that, it is understandable. No need to apologize, I wasn't offended or anything. It's just I don't know how to respond (politically correctly) in a public forum on the web which will record things we say for eternality.

I do totally agree with your 2nd sentence, and would add a few more countries that are evil to their own people to that list.

David
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2014, 10:22:39 am »

Dear David,
     We'll get Peter bothered if we continue in the 'political/etc' vein, so let's leave that for personal communications.
     Re. Ma Shaoxian and the ritual bath he claimed to have taken before he painted the Guanyin or inscribed the bottle (does the reverse have a Buddhist Sutra? I was not aware.),
he was a Moslem, so I seriously doubt he actually visited a ritual bath before he painted it. He may have after he finished, to purify himself from the Pagan iconography.... Or not.
Best,
 Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2014, 12:19:42 pm »

The meaning I think is something like this :

It's one good karma that he can have a special connection with GuanYin (Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara).
Monkhood and the connection with GuanYin has helped him to achieve eternal happiness.
He reside the Sutra of GuanYin in the morning, He reside the Sutra of GuanYin in the evening (basically the whole day)
Every word from the Sutra starts and comes from the heart and has a profound meaning in the heart

Steven and Richard can add/correct what's not right.......

Pin
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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2014, 10:53:51 pm »

Hi Joey,

Agree, I did not join to discuss politics or religion or viewpoints. That would be too stressful and defeats the purpose of an interesting discussion on a potential hobby.

After we get to know each other for a year or so and if still amicable, we can start discussing more stressful issues  Cheesy

David
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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2014, 11:05:38 pm »

Hi Pin,

That must be the deeper meaning of the words, I am not of that faith so can only understand the literal meaning of most of the words. Too complicated into the religion and I am lost.

Thank you for the translation. It is a very neat bottle, that must had been made for a believer.


Hi Joey,

That is funny! I never view it from that perspective!  Grin

Yes, the backside is Sutra, I heard my grandparents read similar.

David
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« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2014, 11:24:23 pm »

Dear David,
    I was actually joking, but I seriously think that Ma Shaoxian was writing that to impress a buyer, rather than because he would do such a thing. He was a Moslem, like Ma Shaoxuan etc., but he was also a person making a living, and would do what his customers expected, in order to earn the money he needed for his family's support. And if he had to seem to observe Buddhist religious strictures, he would have paid 'lip service' (ie., symbolic but not real).

Dear Pin,
    Thank you for the translation!
Best,
Shabbat Shalom from muggy Bangkok!
I'm going to do my Sabbath prayers (I was a bad Jew, going on the Forum BEFORE my prayers!  Embarrassed In my defence, it is addictive.), have a light bite, and go see Tom's collection.
Joey




Hi Pin,

That must be the deeper meaning of the words, I am not of that faith so can only understand the literal meaning of most of the words. Too complicated into the religion and I am lost.

Thank you for the translation. It is a very neat bottle, that must had been made for a believer.


Hi Joey,

That is funny! I never view it from that perspective!  Grin

Yes, the backside is Sutra, I heard my grandparents read similar.

David
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« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2014, 12:22:08 am »

Hi All

For painting of Buddhist portrait and Sutra, it is quite common to see that the artist will often sign with the description that he bath to clean oneself before undertaking the job. It is a gesture of respect for the religion. But whether he really do so is another matter.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2014, 01:03:33 am »

Hi Richard,

I am curious what kind of bath would a true believer take?

Is it an incense bath? Or is it a real bath? Or some kind of ritual bath?

What is the character right before bath? What does it mean? Does it mean smoked by incense?

I am a little ashamed of this, but my written mandarin and reading of higher level mandarin is really bad. I can speak and listen fluently but write like a 3rd grader, read like a high school junior...

David
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« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2014, 01:39:28 am »

Hahaha David!

There is not such thing as an incense bath.

Usually to show respect to the deity or god (Buddhist or Doaist), the follower will bath themselves clean before hand using clean water from a spring (泉水). Sometimes flower petals are added into the water to purify it further.

This ritual is usually accompanied by applying of incense perfume to further purify one's body. Such incense perfume are usually made from animal extract or natural plant extract such as Agar wood or Sandal wood. They are usually burned in an incense burner just like the way we use essential oils today. This the character, Xin (薰) which is short for 薰香 (perfume) before the character bath (浴) in the signature.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard



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« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2014, 02:06:56 am »

 Cheesy  Hahaha! Thank you for taking the time to explain to me in detail.

I always have this image of an elder having a bunch of incense stick smoked/brushed over and around him, before entering the family temple. So, I always thought that character meant smoked! So, when I read it, I thought it meant smoked bath due to that memory.

I need to find a hole or something. Being on this forum is really rough on my confidence... kidding, I really appreciate you explaining that. I had trouble visualizing a master painter painting after getting smoked by incense (i still recall the tears running down the elder!).

Grateful Regards,

David

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« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2014, 02:13:08 am »

Hi David

To a certain extend, you are not wrong as often, the incense extract are burned in an incense burner (usually made of bronze) and the smoke will fill the room and achieved the same result as applying perfume.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2014, 03:03:21 am »

Dear Richard,
as for cleaning hands in Buddhist rite with water sprinklers, I believe that you are referring to the Kundika vessels, like this my one that you can see here below. The second image is shown it when illuminated inside to show the light potting and the way of construction. Original Kundikas are dated back from Tang dynasty and are extremely rare, only very few ones are known. This my one is a later copy but still well made.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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