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An old, purplish stone bottle

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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« on: October 06, 2014, 02:02:55 am »

Dear all,
another one of the recent bought bottles. It is 62 mm high, well hollowed, with both the base and the mouth slightly concave. Heavy surface wear.
The color is dark, some pictures are a bit over exposed so to better shows the structure of the stone. For example, the last picture shows the bottle as it looks, while the previous one is over exposed.
For a not expert in stones like myself, I even suspected that the bottle has been submitted to dyeing, because the real color has a purplish artificial looking. But if so, then also the brown inclusion should have a purplish tone. The real color is more purplish than that seen in the picture with the light inside the bottle, showing the transparent areas. Do you think that the color is natural, and if yes, which type of stone is this?
Kind regards
Giovanni


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George
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2014, 10:32:46 am »

I think it could be a very low grade of Tyffany Stone also called Bertrandite..

Here is a low grade example..

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« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2014, 11:34:46 am »

Dear George,
I think you have nailed it, thank you. I have seen on google that many examples has such brownish/yellow inclusions. Strange enough, the location of this mineral shows that it is found almost everywhere but not within China.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2014, 11:51:31 am »

Dear Giovanni,
    I've never heard of the stone, don't like the finish of the mouth or the foot, but like the bottle's shape and the mineral itself. I honetly don't know how to date it.
Best,
   Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2014, 02:18:14 pm »

Dear Joey,
I am wondering what in particular you don’t like. That is interesting to me being you one of my mentorsjavascript:void(0);, so I would like to know where I am wrong in the following.
The base is not just plain, it is slightly concave and I have already seen that on old snuff bottles.
The neck is a bit flared and that is good; I don’t like necks tapering toward the mouth, that is sign of new production in my opinion. This neck has a sharp rim and the upper part is not flat but concave. The concave upper part around the hole is one of my favorite features.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2014, 03:38:14 pm »

Dear Giovanni,
    I don't see a concave base, I see an unfinished foot. It could be my inability to judge over the screen.
The neck is not flared the way genuine old bottles are, in my opinion. I also can't see the concave part around the opening.
    Possibly if I saw it 'live', I'd see what you see.
Best,
  joey


Dear Joey,
I am wondering what in particular you don’t like. That is interesting to me being you one of my mentorsjavascript:void(0);, so I would like to know where I am wrong in the following.
The base is not just plain, it is slightly concave and I have already seen that on old snuff bottles.
The neck is a bit flared and that is good; I don’t like necks tapering toward the mouth, that is sign of new production in my opinion. This neck has a sharp rim and the upper part is not flat but concave. The concave upper part around the hole is one of my favorite features.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2014, 06:23:38 am »

Dear Joey,
here you can see the concave mouth and base.
I understand what you mean by “not flared the way genuine old bottles are”, you are certainly referring to the everted lip, the extremely nice looking everted lip I would say, which is seen on very fine bottles.  What I meant is that the neck here is larger on the top than on the base, a sort of truncated cone turn upside down. I don’t like when it is the opposite, that the upper part is smaller than the base of the neck.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 05:30:11 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

    Yes, now I do see the indented mouth and indented foot. It makes it go up in my opinion.

By the way, in 18th C. white Nephrite Jade bottles (see #45 in my 1987 catalogue, for example), one finds the type of neck you DON'T like...  Grin
    And this bottle was previously in the collection of the wonderful, erudite Alice (Allie) B. McReynolds, of NYC, one of the great classic snuff bottle collectors...  Wink
Best, my friend,
Joey
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2014, 06:32:48 pm »


If correct in guessing this to be a low grade of tiffany stone, then it could not be older than early 1960's..

The discovery of bertrandite was in Utah's Topaz-Spor Mountains in the early 1960s.

Even if the tiffany stone guess is incorrect, I just do not think this an old bottle ..  So sorry Giovanni, but more likely very new.. Late 20th at best..
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2014, 02:20:15 am »

Dear George and Giovanni,
    This is what is so great about the Forum! We each have specialist knowledge, which helps the others.
I trust George and Charll re.minerology. I trust you re.porcelain. Etc., etc.
    I would tend to agree with George as to dating.
Best,
   Joey
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2014, 04:09:45 am »

Thank you dear Joey and George.
Dear George, if you are correct, that it means that this bottle has been really bad treated by the prvious owners. You can see in the first pictures how the upper and lower border are finely chipped. The general wear too is extensive and not artificially made. It seems that the previous owner was carrying it in his pocket together with pebbles Grin Grin
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2014, 04:57:50 pm »

Greeting to all,

A very interesting bottle. Impossible to know from photos if it is tiffany stone which is a form of opalised flourite and hence relatively soft. Another possibilitywould be sodalitealso relatively soft with hardness of 5.5 to 6. Sodalite has royal blue dark and lighter blue zones and is related to lazulite. Lazulite with pyrite veins is lapis lazuli.The brownish white zones on the bottle would be carbonate. Large deposits of sodalite occurr in Canada, Afghanistan, Greenland and elsewhere.

Still I cant say from the photos if it is lazulite but it looks similar and also like tiffany stone.The relative softness would account for wear and tear.


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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2014, 08:05:12 pm »

Hi Peter !

Great post and I would agree that Sodalite could be another option..

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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2014, 09:09:58 pm »

Thanks for your observations Peter. An interesting analysis!
I agree that it could be sodalite. But I have never heard of tiffany stone before, so cannot compare.

Tom
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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 02:19:05 am »

Dear Peter,
thank you very much. After reading your post I did look at google images for both types of stones and it is hard to say which one it is, but I am more inclined to think that you are right. There are more chances that it is indeed sodalite.  I am not sure of that, but by the images it seems that sodalite structure is more crystal-like than tiffany stone, I mean it should be in general less opaque. This bottle is transmitting light when lit from inside.
I did inspect again the bottle more carefully. The stone can be scratched with a cutter blade, so it is relatively soft which is ok for both type of stones.
The inside is thoroughly carved, but not well finished. The tracks of rotary tool are evident. While the outside shows a lot of wear, the inside doesn’t has sign of use, it is completely clean. That’s strange I think.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2014, 09:35:23 am »

Dear Giovanni

I have done some more research and the fact that the bottle contains some purplish tones is more siggestive of tiffany stone. In gerneral sodalite is light or dark buue, yellow, green, grey or pink with purple very rare. Opalised flourite would show zones of purple.

Under ultrviolet lamp sodalite shows on orange flouresence while tiffany stone greenish and dark bluish. Sodalite will scratch tiffany stone.

The only known source of faceting tiffany stone is the Brusg Wellman Mine in the Topaz Mountains of Utah and dates back mainly to the 1960's and has continues to the present. Although commercially a beryllium mine tiffany stone is marketed on a small scale for jewellery and fetches a good price.

The marketed tiffany stone is often a mixture of tiffany stone (opalised flourite),chalcedony, black manganese and bertrandite a yellow, white or pink beryllium bearing stone.

So the purplish colour zones in the bottle may be more suggestive of tiffany zones and the yellow zones possibly bertrandite.

Best wishes Peter
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2014, 12:41:31 pm »


OK Giovanni, after reading this thread, looking at the shape of the bottle and particularly the spoon and stopper, I'm convincing myself this is a contemporary post 1960's bottle.  Given the scratches it obvious it is a softer material.  It is however a very attractive bottle, interesting material, and I would keep it as a representation of this material until I found out otherwise.  If this were my bottle, when the opportunity presented itself I would take it into a lapidary shop for conformation and I would have them re-polish the surface to remove the scratches.

If at any time you wish to relinquish this bottle, I and I'm sure others here would be interested.

Charll     

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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2014, 07:25:16 am »

Dear Peter,
I did check the bottle under UV light. May be because the light was not strong, I have not seen a real fluorescence. If any, only a faint purple one, so I think that it is indeed Tiffany stone.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Dear Charll, I am sending you a PM.
Thank you all.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2014, 10:44:32 pm »


......looking at the shape of the bottle and particularly the spoon and stopper, I'm convincing myself this is a contemporary post 1960's bottle. 


Dear Giovanni,

I did not want to mention this before, because one should not judge a bottle from its stopper. Both the stopper and spoon in your photos are identical to ones found on 1960s and 1970s bottles. So, if Peter H is saying that Tiffany stone mainly dates back no further than the 1960s, I think that confirms the dating of your bottle.

I agree with Charll's remarks about it being an attractive and unusual bottle, and would keep it in my collection (were it mine!) for those reasons.

Best regards,
Tom
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