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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 16, 2018, 08:24:52 pm
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Liang ge xing, san ge bu

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Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« on: October 05, 2014, 01:46:44 am »

Hi  All

While  in  Singapore   the  other  week   meeting   some members  of the  Nanyang  Group  of  MIPBs     I  heard  this mentioned

Liang ge   xing ( 两个性),  san ge  bu  (三个不 )

“New Inside Painting”  bottles should possess the following two characteristics and observe three taboos:

Two Characteristics (liang ge  te  xing ) : Artistic, Original

Three Taboos (san ge  bu yao) : No Copying, No Imitating, No Duplicating

“新内画”应具有以下两个特性和三个不要:

两个特性:艺术性,原创性

三个不要:不抄袭,不模仿,不重复

Cheers

Peter
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Joey
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2014, 04:49:07 am »

Dear Peter,
    What is the difference between 'copying' and 'duplicating' ?
 I can understand the nuance between imitating and copying/duplicating, although it is also quite close.
Best,
 Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2014, 10:46:01 am »

Hi Joey

I think  "no copying"  means   never to    create a  bottle   that  is  copied  from an original    painting / photograph/  etc

"No  duplication"  means  never to  repeat the  same   bottle .

___________

As  regards  "no  copying'":


In my  Xian   presentation  I will  state  the  fact  ( and it  is a fact) that  the    great  majority  of  MIPBs  painted  up till   about  1990 ( e.g the  collection of  J.H. Leung =  Liang  Zhixin )   were  copies  of  other  paintings,  books,  photos  etc .  I.e they  were  not  original   creations.

But  it  was  pointed  out to me  in Singapore  that    that was   what most collectors  actually wanted   at that  time .  They   big  collectors   were   collecting  high  quality  inside  paintings    which   were   specifically   requested to  be   copies  of  traditional   Chinese and  Western  paintings   etc.  Most  collectors at that  time    did  not   want  original   creative  painting so  -  speaking  generally   -  artists   had to paint    the  kind of  bottles  that  collectors  were   willing to  buy.  Therefore   artists   who  experimented   with   creativity  like  Li  Yizi  and  Wang  Guanyu  had a  tough  time to   sell their  bottles  and  make a  living.

__________

As  regards  "no  duplication"  - that  is a moot  point  on which  we  all  may  have  different  opinions

Throughout  art   history ,  famous  artists  have   duplicated  their  iconic   paintings,    either  for  variation,  or  to    paint them  better  ..... or  maybe  just for  money

Da  Vinci painted   2  x  Mona  Lisas  and   there  are  at  least  6 x  Munch's  iconic "Scream"

Personally  I  have  no big  issue   with   duplication   if  ever  bottle  is     signed  and  dated

But  I accept that  others  may  have a  problem   with  this

_______


 I think  that   the  the   "liang ge   xing /  san ge  bu"  is   meant  as  an ideal.

I have no  idea  who coined the  phrase , nor  why

Cheers

Peter


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Joey
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2014, 01:55:12 pm »

Dear Peter,
     Thank you for the explanation. Now I understand it better.
     I can see their points, although I personally think that most Chinese art was done as an 'homage' to prior art. For example, the 4 Wangs of the 17th C., who in effect founded the Orthodox Court Landscape style painting; they were closely copying or at least inspired by, earlier paintings, from the Ming Wu School, from the Blue & Green School (also Ming), and from Northern and Southern Song Dynasty painting.
    It sounds as if they've been influenced by Western attitudes towards what constitutes fine art.
Best,
   Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

OIB
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2014, 01:01:01 am »

joey,

My views on this subject is as follow :

1. On ' copying ', it can mean later artists reproducing exactly/identically what artists in the earlier dynasties did ( students of art school were taught to do so to gauge how close they reached the standards of the earlier masters ). This is what the Shangdong IPB master Li Kechang meant when he referred to the works of craftsmen copying faithfully even the details of others.

2. ' Copying ' can also mean an artist ' follows the style ' of earlier masters, like the
Qing artists painted by following the style of Ming masters. However, the later artists' works were of different contents, They were in a sense following the traditions of certain school.

i will continue when I am back from some meeting.

Inn Bok

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Joey
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2014, 02:14:17 am »

Dear Inn Bok,
     
       I understand, but it has always been the Chinese way to revere and emulate, and, yes, COPY, the behavior of ancestors, whether actual or philosophical. And I see  (and Chinese Culture historically saw) later
artists as the spiritual/philosophical 'children' of their predecessors, whether those earlier artists were  years or centuries earlier.  And if you look at the Four Wangs of the 17th C., they specifically copied earlier artists.
    The fact that they couldn't help being influenced by later culture, and their work is immediately identifiable as 17th C. and not Ming or Song, is not an argument against their basic philosophy, which I call, following the
Hebrew Bible's book of Ecclesiastes, "There Is Nothing New Under The Sun".
Best,
   Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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