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European Subject - Enamel on Copper

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AntPeople
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« on: September 14, 2014, 04:34:44 am »

Hi All :

Is this bottle really from Qianlong period or more like the later part of 19th C. The little girl looks very angry  Cry Cry Cry....







It was once sold by Bonhams (I checked and really found it in Bonhams archive, sold for I think around USD600+) and these are the words that come with this bottle on auction :

Description

Guangzhou, Qing dynasty, Qianlong black-enamelled four-character mark Of globular form with a slightly splayed flat foot, rising from wide slanted shoulders to a gently waisted cylindrical neck, one side vividly enamelled with a portrait of a young girl and the reverse a boy, both in traditional Dutch outfits within a circular panel, the narrow sides decorated with a profusion of archaistic motif against a brilliant lemon yellow and blue ground, the base with four-character kaishu mark. 5.4cm high. Provenance: Paul Braga Collection of Snuff Bottles Bonhams Hong Kong 2012, Lot 151 清 廣州 銅胎畫琺瑯荷蘭人物鼻煙壺 黑彩「乾隆年製」楷書款 壺扁瓶形,溜肩,直頸,橢圓形圈足,平底。壺體兩面開光,分別繪西洋紳士及女士圖,紳士戴帽,系領結,著答疑,女士身著長裙,別胸花,均與荷蘭傳統服飾風格接近。壺身兩側繪纏枝西番蓮紋,上半身及下半身分別以藍地及黃地琺瑯彩裝飾。壺底黑彩書「乾隆年製」四字楷書款。

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2014, 04:43:00 am »

I see no reason to doubt the age. The enamelling and wear are consonant with a late 18th C. example.
And the provenance is very good.
Best,
 Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2014, 06:23:56 am »

Dear Pin,

It is a Qian Long mark and really looks authentic.
As for the age, I don't think it is Qian Long period.

Cheers,
YT
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2014, 07:01:47 am »

Dear Pin,
first of all, remember that when the description of any Auction house say: “Qianlong four character mark etc etc” and doesn’t say instead “Qianlong four character and of the period etc etc”, it means that it is NOT of the period.
Dear Joey, I suppose that you have not read completely the description? If this is Qianlong, is it possible that it was sold by Bonhams for 600 US$ only?
Dear Pin, “It is Qianlong mark and really looks authentic. As for the age, I don’t think it is Qianlong period”: what do you mean? The two sentences are in contradiction. “Authentic” means of the period, no?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2014, 07:27:21 am »

Dear Giovanni,
    I have been 'burning the candle at both ends', since my return on Wed. aft., so I did not read it carefully.
Mea Culpa!  Grin
    The bottle is badly damaged and restored around the neck, but the mark is 'right' for a late 18th C. Canton Enamel mark (ca. 1790-1800). The Qianlong Emperor abdicated in 1795, after 59 years of rule, so as not to overshadow his grandfather, the Kangxi Emperor, who'd ruled for 60 years. But he lived till late in 1799, and had wares produced with his reign mark till his death. Since it would have taken time to notify the Imperial enamel workshops in Canton, I gave a range of 1790-1800.
    I remember the bottle from Paul Braga's collection. It is very unattractive, both in condition and in subject matter,  but he'd bought it very cheaply very early in his collecting, and had kept it as a keepsake rather than as a treasured example.
    Don't trust Bonham's opinions overmuch; they do a lot of C.Y.A. ('cover your ass'), just like the other auction houses.
    It could conceivably be as late as ca. 1850, but I think it is 'of the period', if it is the one I remember.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2014, 08:31:48 am »

Dear Pin, “It is Qianlong mark and really looks authentic. As for the age, I don’t think it is Qianlong period”: what do you mean? The two sentences are in contradiction. “Authentic” means of the period, no?
Kind regards
Giovanni


Dear Giovanni,

Authentic means the 4 character marks. Really looks like real.

As for the period of this Enamelled bottle, it is not emperor Qian Long's reign.

Now I'm quite clear, right? Wink

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2014, 08:58:17 am »

Dear Joey and Pin,
everything clear from both you, thank you!
In fact to me too the best side of this bottle is the mark itself.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2014, 10:03:41 am »

Dear Giovanni,
     What's wrong with the surrounds? They are nicely painted (what's not repaired, anyway).
But the mark is certainly among its best features.  Grin
Best,
 Joey



Dear Joey and Pin,
everything clear from both you, thank you!
In fact to me too the best side of this bottle is the mark itself.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2014, 02:15:22 pm »

Dear Joey,
the pictures are small, but it seems to me that the decoration is not of Imperial quality as the bottle is supposed to be. Everything looks a bit stiff to me but I am not expert on enamelled bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2014, 03:19:33 pm »

Dear Giovanni,
     It was made in Canton (Guangzhou), where the second rank of enamelling was done, although the top quality of Canton Enamels is equivalent to that of Beijing. This example is not up to what you would expect of  Palace Workshops standards, but, if you remember Tom B's thread about Imperial Enamelled wares, his point was that it was not always up to the standard we now imagine it had been.
 Best,
   Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2014, 11:03:35 pm »

Here is another similar Canton enamel snuff bottle as a comparison.   





A Chinese Canton enamel on metal snuff bottle with an enamel on metal dish.  Qianlong mark and period.  Bottle with figures and engraved metal top.  2" in height.  Snuff dish with flowers 1 5/8" diameter.  Sold Quinn's Auction Galleries April 2013 for $3000 US.

Charll

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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2014, 01:31:04 am »

Thank you dear Joey, and thank you dear Charll.
Dear Charll, that bottle looks much better. I would have expected an higher value for a m&p bottle including the snuff dish. But it seems that there are some damages on the enamels around the neck, that should be the reason.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2014, 03:19:37 am »

Dear Giovanni,
    I agree that the price is low, but the damages to the bottle and to the snuff dish would account for that. Incidentally, the two would not have been made as a set; they are two objects from the same workshop, but made at different times by different artisans.
    The fact that one has an archaic seal reign mark in blue while the other has a kaishu reign mark in black, should be pretty good evidence of  the fact that at least the artisans doing the inscriptions were different.     
    We sometimes forget that the Qianlong Emperor's mark was authentically inscribed on items for over 63 years (from some time in 1735, when he ascended the Dragon Throne on the death of the Yongzheng Emperor, to late in 1799, on his death).
    So there would have been a number of artisans over the years; probably  4 generations of them (I suggest 15 years there, after 15 years perfecting their craft to be allowed to serve in the Imperial Palace Workshops, but it is only guesswork on my part).
   Best,
 Joey
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2014, 11:07:08 am »

Quote
But it seems that there are some damages on the enamels around the neck

To improve the accuracy of reporting, Quinn's Auction House did include the following condition report.

Condition:
The yellow area around the neck has a large amount of black bubbling to it, probably from the firing process, this extends into the yellow triangle shaped ornaments extending downwards. There is also some of this effect in the tree branch above the four figures. There is also some slight corrosion to the rock by the foot to one side.

Charll
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2014, 12:55:43 am »

Hi All :

Is this enamel bottle painted around the same time as the pervious 2 in this thread ?



Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2014, 11:42:56 am »


Pin, this is a new bottle.  Colors are too bright (Joey would say off), image is too crisp (the best word I can up with at the moment), and no signs of ware.  Too may signs indicated it is not old!!! Charll
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2014, 11:50:04 am »

Dear Pin,
    I agree with Charll. And I am unanimous in that! (A Hyacinth Bucket reference).  Grin
Shabbat Shalom,
joey



Pin, this is a new bottle.  Colors are too bright (Joey would say off), image is too crisp (the best word I can up with at the moment), and no signs of ware.  Too may signs indicated it is not old!!! Charll
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2014, 02:56:34 am »

Thanks a lot........so is this type of enamel very new like yesterday or in the 70s or so and is made from some HK or GuangZhou factory for the fake antique trade that time ?

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2014, 02:59:44 am »

Pin

My best guess is that this is a 70s through late 90s bottle. They used to be allover the markets, including ebay in the early 2000s but now seem to have largely dissappeared.  We don't see many of them pop up. My thinking is that production costs are too high now.  These were still handpainted at the time. 
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Pat
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2017, 09:38:07 pm »

Here is another similar Canton enamel snuff bottle as a comparison.   





A Chinese Canton enamel on metal snuff bottle with an enamel on metal dish.  Qianlong mark and period.  Bottle with figures and engraved metal top.  2" in height.  Snuff dish with flowers 1 5/8" diameter.  Sold Quinn's Auction Galleries April 2013 for $3000 US.

Charll



I am curious to know if these reign marks "in brown" are among some of the definitive clues to Early enamel on copper bottles ..
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