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Clear Crystal Snuff Bottle

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kjennings12
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« on: August 25, 2014, 11:12:39 am »

I love these clear crystal bottles, they are beautiful in their simplicity...


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Pat - 查尚杰
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Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 11:45:58 am »

Thanks for posting this Keith.  I was referring to exactly this kind of bottle in another post painted inside by Xue Shao Fu in 1907. Very timely!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 09:09:14 pm by Pat » Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
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Steven
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 11:48:35 am »

Hi Keith,


I love this bottle!  I wish that I can have one of this kind one time, actually I am hunting.Smiley

Steven
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kjennings12
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 12:00:06 pm »

I don't know how one goes about dating this rectangular style of bottle, the earliest I have seen this shape was a Kangxi bottle, but mostly around the late Qing, and I'm sure they are probably still being made...

Keith
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kjennings12
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 12:04:10 pm »

An inside-painted rock-crystal snuff bottle Ye Zhongsan, dated 1897, sold by Bonham's...


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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 12:17:37 pm »

Dear Keith,
it is not clear what your bottle is made of. You called it "clear crystal". What do you mean, glass or natural quartz? It looks glass to me but of course it is difficult to judge by pictures.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 12:47:24 pm »

Hi Keith,

What is the size of your bottle, I will date it early 19th, but I am not any kind expert of stone bottles. would love to see other's comments.Wink

Steven
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kjennings12
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 02:01:54 pm »

Hi Giovanni! I am no expert, but it looks like quartz to me, there is a small inclusion on the inside rim of the mouth, and I looked for bubbles and found none...

Cheers,
Keith
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 02:53:40 pm »

Dear Keith,
we have discussed how to differentiate glass from rock crystal here:
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1749.0.html
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Giovanni
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 05:07:27 pm »

So, being the impatient type, I looked up the differences in glass and quartz and found the quartz is much harder than glass and will scratch it. So, I just scratched my window with a corner of the bottle, which means it's quartz....

Keith
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Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2014, 08:03:28 pm »

Hi  All

Crystal  ( quartz)   vs  glass  :  how to  spot the  difference ?

I  recently   did  a  bit  of  research into  this  and  found  out that the   specific  gravity (density)  of glass and quartz  are  both  much the  same   :  about   2.4  -  2.8  gm/cc

BTW  :  check  this  amazing  link  into  natural  gemstones :  wonderful   what  nature  has   created  for  us !

GEORGE : Don't  drool !

http://www.gemselect.com/gem-info/specific-gravity.php

So  what  is  it  that   "naturally"  makes  us   feel  a  quartz  (rock  crystal)  bottle  is  a   quartz  bottle   and a    glass  bottle  is a  glass  bottle ? 

Is  it  really the  perceived  "density"  - meaning  the  weight of the  bottle  vs  its  size  ?
Or  the   the  thermal  conductivity  (the  "cheek"  test) ?
Or the   scratch test ?

Of  course  natural  crystal  has  tiny  imperfections   which is  the  ultimate  give-away  vs man-made   crystal  which is   flawless.  ( I  do  happen  to  own  a   natural  rock crystal bottle  from the  mid  2000's  by Song Yiming  which came  with  an  original  gemologist   certificate - the   first  and  only time   that ever  happened) 

[I also  know  that one of the   top  "junior"  artists  in Hengshui  these  days ,  Da  Yong  =  Zhang  Yong    comes  from a  family which  specializes  in  natural  crystal   and  other   types  of  rare  stones. On  one   of my earliest  trips  to  Hengshui  a  fellow  guest  at  dinner  with  him  was  a  dealer  in  rare  stones  from  somewhere   in  S.E. China ( Jiangsu ? ) .   I did  not  realize the   significance  of  this  until  just  my last  trip to  Hengshui  when  Da  Yong  showed me  his latest   set of  bottles  - almost all  of  which were  painted  inside  special  types  of  quartz  and  other  varieties  of  minerals   e.g  agate .  I  finally  bought  a  totally    superb    abstract   landscape  bottle  which he  painted  inside a  very ( VERY)  thick natural , 99 %  flawless quartz  bottle * . He   asked  only  RMB 20K  which was a  pure  'friendship" price  because  I'm sure he  could  have  sold  it  within  China  for   twice  that .  But  he  told  me that  actual raw bottle  cost  him RMB 7-8 K , which  I  can  believe. ]   

I think that  it's  actually because  a  glass  bottle  can be (indeed  must be)   blown  and  is therefore  naturally  thin  and  light.

However, a  quartz  bottle (whether  natural  or  man-made)   must be  bored  out  from  within  from a  solid  block,  so the   bottle-maker  stops  well before   reaching the  outer  surface  and  breaking through,  thus   quartz  bottles  are  naturally    thicker  and  thus heavier   size-for-size

And of  course  being thicker  they  pass  the  "cheek"  test .

(Actually  the  thermal  conductivity  of  quartz  is  about  3   vs  about  1  for  glass so   if   given  two  exact  one-for-one  / thickness-for-thickness    bottles  :  glass   vs   quartz    the    quartz  bottle   would  feel   warmer to the  cheek than  the glass  bottle, not  colder

Any  comments ?

___________

Re  this   little   story  from the  past:

"This reminds me of a story about the Space Program. When Ilan Ramon z"l (the Israeli astronaut who was killed with all his US team-mates in space), was going to go up, NASA told the Israel Air Force (where Ramon was a pilot), that he'd need at least 2 pens which would write in space. They said they'd developed such a pen at a cost per pen of US$45,000, and would sell Israel the pens at cost. The government thanked them but refused. Ramon went into space with 12 pencils, at a total cost of US$6"

I  heard  an alternative  ( and  probably  more  true)  version:

 The  USA   developed a  special  ball-point  pen  for the  space  station  that  would  work in  zero  gravity  at the  cost  of   over  US$1  million ( and in fact there really   was a  commercial  version  that was  sold   about   30  years   ago   as  a gimmick, and  I  once  bought  one   -  as  if  one  would ever  want  to  write  upside  down !) .

The  Russians  used a  pencil !

____________________

Cheers

Peter

* The  background  to this  was   that  on my  last  trip  to  Hengshui   in May this  year ,  Da  Yong kept  appearing  in  almost every meal, no matter  which   special   circle  of  artists  were  involved as  long as they  were  "junior"  artists  i.e.   20s -  40s .  It  seems  he  is a  real   " (wolf) pack leader "  in Hengshui  and  I'm betting that  he's the   true   successor  to   WXS,   rather than  WZY.   I  kept  joking  with  him  that  "I  love  you  but  I  don't  love  what  you  paint"  because  Da  Yong  rarely paints  landscapes . So  on  the last  morning  in Hengshui  I  accepted  his  invitation   to  go  to  his  home  and  he showed  me  his  latest   creations.  In truth  out  a  couple of   dozen  bottles   50- 60 %  were  painted inside special   stone  bottles,  and  only  a   couple  were   Chinese  landscapes,  of  which  I  intermediately picked  on   the  best  IMHO   and   looked  at it  for  over  one  hour in various  lights  before  deciding  I  must buy it .
Inside-painted  bottle   collecting  is  addictive .....
Beware !    Grin
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 08:07:25 pm by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

kjennings12
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 09:33:26 pm »

Here is a jade pendant I acquired from the same estate as the bottle. It appears to be Qianlong or Jiaqing, 1780-1820, and beautifully made out of a very good quality piece of nephrite...


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* IMG_2370.jpg (21.58 KB, 640x480 - viewed 13 times.)
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Wattana
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 09:39:11 pm »

I am confused. I just responded to a post made by Peter on another thread entitled 'Test For Transparent Glass Verses[sic] Rock Crystal Bottles'.  Now I opened this thread (Clear Crystal Snuff Bottle) and find EXACTLY the same post from Peter.

Peter, are you cutting-&-pasting your comments on multiple threads?  Huh

Tom

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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 09:40:19 pm »

Steven, the bottle is 6 cm high...
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Wattana
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 10:05:52 pm »

Hi all,

There is a well established group of bottles of this exact shape in clear quartz crystal, as well as a few examples in chalcedony, which can be dated to as early as 1760s. It appears to have been a popular form, as they were still being produced into the 1900s in glass (hewn out of slabs of solid glass). So Giovanni was correct to question Keith's bottle, although it did look like quartz to me from the photos.

Until more research is done the dating range remains a wide one (1760-1920).

Tom

PS: Keith, I would have no trouble placing your exquisite jade pendant in the period you suggested.
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2014, 02:31:44 am »

Dear Peter,
sorry but your conclusions about heat are totally wrong. Please read here the answer to the same post:
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1749.msg28921/topicseen.html#msg28921
Kind regartds
Giovanni
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