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Question about reference material for Jing, Yue, Lu Schools

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Question: zHRqE
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Author Topic: Question about reference material for Jing, Yue, Lu Schools  (Read 2577 times)
Pat - 查尚杰
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« on: May 13, 2011, 07:14:26 pm »

I guess this question goes mostly to Richard as he seems to have the largest library of books and other materials, but to anyone who can give more info... I have the CIPMA and the Wang Zi Yong books (both hard copy and scanned, thanks to Peter!!) but they are heavily concentrated on Ji school (for obvious reasons, as they are both from the Wang Xisan family).  In addition, while "New Look..." (also thanks to Peter) has more reference to Beijing (Jing School) the material is obviously dated, given the 1990 publishing date.  I would like to learn more about the Jing school in particular, and find ANY additional reference or documentation about the Yue and Lu schools.  Can any of you share names and titles, authors of any books, websites, both in English and Chinese, and written here in English and Chinese characters? 

Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2011, 12:31:39 am »

Hi  Pat,

Yes, me too ! All  I know  about the  Yue  school in  Shantou ( Swatow)  is  what  I wrote  before   about  meeting  one modern  artist  from there  at  Yantai.

I  had  heard  of the   Shandong / Lu  school before, but  only   met  the  artists    for the  first  time at  Yantai  (  in fact the  whole  Yantai exhibition was organized by the  Lu  school)

When  I  retire  I want to    visit  both places  Smiley

But the   BJ  Jing  school also seems  very  quiet, even though  I have a  hot line  via Jill and  her  husband  Li Hui  who is an ex- student  of  Liu  Shouben. I have never  met  any  of the  artists (  yet...)

However, Jill  now  has a  few  Lu   and  Jing school bottles  in her  catalogue  and I have a  couple  of bottles  by  Zhang  Baohua  (  quite  nice ones)

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2011, 01:07:40 am »

Hi Pat

Although the Jing School (京) is one of the earliest schools for inside painted bottles, there are not many literature devoted to this school.

Most publications for this school focused on it’s old masters such as Ma Shaoxuan, Zhou Leyuan, Ye Zhongsan and a few others.

You can find more information on them from titles like “Inkplay In Microcosm: Inside-painted Chinese Snuff Bottles - The Humphrey K F Hui Collection” by a Hong Kong collector, Humphrey Hui and “The World In A Bottle” by Stephen L Little & Joseph B Silver.

Unfortunately, books on comptemporary Jing artists are rare, one being “The Art Of Liu Shouben: Inside-Painted Snuff Bottles Of The Beijing School” by fellow local collector Dr Wong Kai Sang which is devoted entirely to Master Liu Shouben. Master Liu remains the current active artist from this school with a few students.

By the way, Master Wang Xisan is also a student from this school before he forms his own Ji School (冀) in Hebei.

For the Lu School (鲁) of the Shandong province, there are a few publications in Chinese published in recent years. One is the works of Master Zhang Guangqin and another from his son, Zhang Luhua. There are also the Yantai Convention publications in 2007 and 2009 which featured some of the other artists from this school.

I have yet to find a publication devoted to the Yue School (粤) in Guangdong.

Of course, you may come across various articles printed in journals and magazines such as the ICSBS Journal and Arts of Asia, etc on an ad hoc basis.

In addition to the above, there are also 2 younger schools in China, namely the Qin School (秦) in Shanxi (陕西) headed by Zhang Tieshan (张铁山) and also the Jin School (晋) by Duo Shanling (多山岭) in Shanxi (山西). Both Zhang and Duo are former students of Wang Xisan.

For websites on thesse inside painters, the easiest way is to do a search in Chinese using the Chinese search engine Baidu. (www.baidu.com). But of course, most of these websites will be in Chinese with a few comes with an English version.

However, if you are using Google Chrome browser, there is a translation feature that will be triggered whenever a web page in foreign language is accessed. Alteratively, you can also use some web translation tools such as Google translation, etc.

Hope this helps.


Richard


I guess this question goes mostly to Richard as he seems to have the largest library of books and other materials, but to anyone who can give more info... I have the CIPMA and the Wang Zi Yong books (both hard copy and scanned, thanks to Peter!!) but they are heavily concentrated on Ji school (for obvious reasons, as they are both from the Wang Xisan family).  In addition, while "New Look..." (also thanks to Peter) has more reference to Beijing (Jing School) the material is obviously dated, given the 1990 publishing date.  I would like to learn more about the Jing school in particular, and find ANY additional reference or documentation about the Yue and Lu schools.  Can any of you share names and titles, authors of any books, websites, both in English and Chinese, and written here in English and Chinese characters? 

Thanks!
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2011, 01:44:57 am »

Thanks Richard.  So, based on your response and reading between the lines, it seems like the Jing school is in danger of not being taken forward to next generations with just a few students and perhaps masters in coming following Liu Shouben.  This also seems to explain the lack of items (visible at least) in the market place, other than through direct order and mouth to mouth/who knows who.  It definetely seems the 'lowest' profile of the big schools.  A real pity ... just my own point of view.  On the Shanxi schools, do you have any more info before I try to do this in Baidu?  Which city/ies are the concentrated in?  Taiyuan or?
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2011, 01:45:51 am »

Hi  Richard

Hey  - that's  REALLY  useful info.  Thanks  !

I was  especially interested  in the Qin and  Jin   schools . I never knew  they had  names before !

 I met  Zhang Tieshan  at Yantai , where  he  was  honored  as   one of the 12  Great  Current  Masters , on  a par with  Wang Xisan,  Liu  Shouben,  Zhang Guangqin  etc  (look  in my  DB  under Yantai for  the  12  Masters    Catalogue) He  also  gave  me   his  catalogue  which  I scanned, and  you  will   find it  in the  DB.  He is  based  in Xian and next time  I go there  on business I want to  visit  his  studio.

But  Duo  Shanling  is a  mystery .  No pics,  no  nothing  :  just a  reference  in my   DB  to  him as a  1st  generation   pupil  of  Wang  Xisan.

I have  updated  my  DB  atists  reference  code   word.doc to  include this  latest  info

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2011, 02:24:04 am »

Hi Pat and Peter

Here are some links you can check out:

Jin School (晋) by Duo Shanling (多山岭) in Shanxi (山西)
http://blog.sina.com.cn/duoshanling
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_7142c1db0100n5qs.html

Qin School (秦) by Zhang Tieshan (张铁山) in Shanxi (陕西)
http://www.chinamingci.com/ms/1340.shtml
http://art.findart.com.cn/208035-art.html

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2011, 02:59:47 am »

Thanks Richard! Glad to have you back here.  I hope all is well with you.  Kind Regards..
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2011, 10:50:50 am »

Hi Pat, All

Now  here's an interesting  thing  if you  have my  DB:    do a  search  routine for  all files  in the  DB   with  {J}  in the  file  name and see  what  comes up !  VERY  interesting !

[ NOTE :  In the  DB I  use  {J}  for  the   Jing   school  and  {H} for the  Ji  school = Hengshui.  A  search for {J}  will  miss out  Liu Shouben  himself  because I accidentally  labelled  him {Jspace}

Almost  90%  of   Jing school artists  in the  DB  are  mentioned  ONLY  in  New  Look, and  nothing since  then !

Only a   very  few    Jing  artists also   appear  in CIPMA, one of   which  is  Zhang Baohua  whose   still actively paints  and  whose  bottles  Jill    sometimes  has for  sale ( I bought   a nice one   a  year  ago )  Another  two   are  are   Cao  Hongmin   and Sun Baocai   who have  since become  partners in Jill's  BJ  shop/ dealership  business,   and    who   seem  also  to    have  stopped  painting  ( as  far as I know)

There's  also a  couple of  Jing bottles in the  DB  bought  by me  ( Mao Ru and  Zhang  Zhigang) , but    significantly  I found these  in  the    bottom   shelf   of a  HK  Hollywood  Road  antique  shop  2 years  ago,   and both bottles  are  dated  late  1990's .

So  it  does  seem that the  Jing  school  is  dying out.............   at least  to  this   amateur  observer

Mmmmmmmmm    another  project to   follow  up

RICHARD  :  You  have  good  contacts  with  Liu Shouben , I  understand.  Could  you  perhaps   write to him for  some  insight  as   to  what has  happened to the   Jing  school?

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 11:58:19 am »

Yup, that was my point raised earlier.  I have been combing through your database for work produced by Jing school and other open ends, and also noticed what you just said.  This is also how I came up with the Qiu Shi question in another thread.  It seems that I also only have earlier works from Jing school.  And the reason I have it, is because at one point they painted 'old' style, kind of reproduction of old work in sepia resembling the 'look' of the old scroll paintings (from the 70s/80s) and I took a liking to it.  I dont think I have anything from them that comes close to the work produced in Hengshui though.  I have the greatest respect for Liu Shouben's work and the 'early' followers but have not been willing to shell out that much dough, and frankly, the rest of the school is kind of invisible, if existing. 
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2011, 12:13:30 pm »

Peter

You can see I am really using your database.  What an incredible resource.  A heartfelt thanks for sharing it!  And some interesting threads and discussions coming out of it.  Another thing that intrigues me is the Nie Lei/Rui Zhi et al linkages to Zhang Limin... I have a couple of Nie Lei bottles both signed as Rui Zhi and Yi Ding, so this is another open end to explore.  Finally, I have a broken/repaired bottle (unsigned) that is very very likely from the other Yi Ding (Suo Zhenhai) that is so extremely close to the bottle style and painting style of your bottle and the one in CIPMA (landscapes).  I need a long vacation to photograph my stuff!
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 02:01:36 am »

Hi  Pat,

Glad you  are  having  fun  with the   DB !  Cheesy  

Apart  from  using  it myself to navigate the Modern IPB  "jungle",  I  was  always hoping that   others would   use it  as a resource  for research and then  gradually flesh it out and  fill in the  gaps  so that  we gradually  build   it  up.  Then  once   every  year  or  so  I will   re-issue  the  new up-dated  master  version  to  all  interested  contributors.

I tried to  introduce  it  at the  Yantai meeting but  got  zero  interest.  And so  far  all  my modest  attempts to  get the  ICSBS  interested  in  any   tiny way ( just a  one-liner  in the   editorial  would be  enough)  have  fallen  on  deaf ears.
Guess that's  life  Cry

There's still an  enormous  amount to  do . For   example , your past  two  postings  raise  many  questions:

1. What  happened to the  Jing  school !  Seems  it is  dying out  fast (  Hoping  Richard  can  cast some  light  on that )

2. Zhang Limin ( aka   Spiderman)  =   Rui  Zhi  =  Yu Ran   =    Xiao Xi = Jiang Hua  :  I think   all these  are  his pen names,  or at least  names   others  have  written  on his  unsigned  bottles  before  passing them  out into the  market for  sale to runners.  Next time I go to  Hengshui  I'm going to  take  all the bottles   which I  think were  painted by him and    get positive  ID  ( and then ask  him to  sign them in his own name ! )

3.  In the edition of  the  DB you  have I  did give  Rui Zhi as  an alternate pen name  for Nei Lei. I  later noticed  that, and  could  not remember  why  I  did that.  So  in the  absence  of  any  evidence  I recently  deleted  Rui Zhi as a  pen name  of  Nei Lei.   So  I think  Rui Zhi  is  100%  Zhang Limin  , and   Nei  Lei  is  only  aka   Yi Ding.   But anyway, that's  also  very easy to   check  in  Hengshui because  Nei Lei  has a  shop  in the  high street (  "  Yi  Ding  Inside  Art" )

4. The  "other  Yi  Ding" = Suo Zhenhai :  this  is  very  interesting because  in CIPMA  120/121  the  alternate  pen  names  of  Suo Zhenhai  (  Yi Ding  =  One  person and  Yi Shi  =  One Stone)   are  only  given  in the  English  text.  They are not mentioned  in the  Chinese  text  ! .   BTW  :  this  is  not the  first time  I  have  found the   English and  Chinese texts  differering  in   CIPMA .  Yi  Shi / One  Stone  is  一石,  I am  99%  certain.  But  I am not   so sure  that  Yi  Ding / One Person  is    一丁  , as  in  Nei Lei / Yi Ding.  So  maybe  when  I   also  gave  Suo Zhenhai   the   aka  of  一丁  in the  DB  I was    wrong .  RICHARD :  Is there  any other   character  that  would   fit   better     pronounced " Ding"  but meaning  " Person" ?  Look  in CIPMA page  120 and  you  will see  what  I mean .

5. Suo Zhenhai  is a very  interesting   artist.  He  died  in 2006   from  cancer and  his wife now  continues  the business  ( see the    Yantai  advert : they  even have a  website) . According  to Bill,   Suo Zhenhai  painted  profilically   till  the end of  his  life, and  so  his bottles   often  turn  up all over the  place  at  very low prices. I bought  a  very nice  one in a  GZ  shop  for  only  RMB800 ! ( certified  as genuine  by   a senior  HS  artist  who knew  SZH very well  : it's  actually in my  DB  ) . His  bottles  towards the  end  of his life mostly  seemed  to have a common  theme   as typified   by the  bottle  I have  and the  one  on Bill's  website.   But  some  of  his   earlier  work  is very different, and in my opinion  much better. I once  saw  one of  his  bottles  reported  as sold on a  Chinese  auction  site  for   RMB80,000,  although  I think that  many of the  prices  on such  Chinese  auction sites  are  rigged ( there  was once a  Wang Xisan  reported  sold on one such   site   for  RMB500,000).

6. Another  interesting  thing........  if you  look at the     English  text  of  Suo Zhenhai  in CIPMA  you   will see  references  to  the   fact that  SZH  studied  under  various  "modern  artists  ... Li Keran,    etc". I  can't  find these  names  anywhere,  so   either  they  are  completely forgotten  Modern School  IPB  artists,  or they were   canvas  artists
(I suspect the  latter )
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 02:19:25 am »

Thanks for the addl info.  On point (3):  Nie Lei DEFINETELY uses the 'Rui Zhi' pen name so dont delete that.  I have 2 of his calligraphy bottles and one of them with a bona fide certificate, picture of him, signed, number of copy et all...

On the ICSBS, hmmm... no comment but I think you know my point of view already.  Just goes to show many of these folks have their head in the clouds.  If it aint certified or endorsed by some of you know who, then they dont follow.
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 02:27:54 am »

To clarify my last point the calligraphy bottled ARE signed Yi Ding... BUT i have heard he uses Rui ZHi too.  Better to ask him and veirfy.  Also, there is an artist called Yi Din too to further confuse matters. 
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 03:01:24 am »

Hi  Pat

1. Based  on your info ,  I  have  put  back   Rui  Zhi   into the    DB  as  aka  Nie Lie   ( ? )  and  well as   aka  Zhang Limin ( ? )  *

To clarify  from my side  :   the ( very few)   Rui Zhi  bottles  I have were  all bought  in   Ms Wang's  bottle   shop  in SH, where  she often  has bottles    both  from  the  Da Yong  studio  of  artists   ( includes  Zhang Limin)  and also   from Nie Lei.  Quite  often  she herself  is confused  about the  real  origin  of   a bottle, so  it could be  at  one  time  she  told me  Rui  Zhi is  from the  Da Yong studio, and  at another  time   from   Nie Lei

2. If  you  look  under  ZLM  in my  DB  you  will see   pics  of  a   " Rui  Zhi" bottle   showing flying  geese  which  I  have  so far attributed to   ZLM - but  maybe  wrongly . If I recall, I did  not buy  this  bottle  -  just  took pics.  What  is  interesting  is that  I  have  another version  of this  bottle  ( same    flying  geese ,   with just  minor  variations)    which  I bought  in  GZ  ( ! ) .    AND  I have  seen   the  same theme  painted   yet  again    in another  bottle  at least  one  more  time, maybe  even   twice more, again  in SH.     I guess  they are  all painted  by  Rui Zhi,  whoever    he  is ( " Mr  Flying  Geese" !)  , unless  these  are all variations  on a  theme  inspired  by a   famous   canvas  painting which  more than one artist  has  copied.

3.   Glad to  know  your  Nei Lei  calligraphy  bottle  is  in fact  signed  Yi  Ding.  Because  as far as I know  ALL his   calligraphy bottles  are   signed  Yi Ding.

4.  "Din"  is  not a  pinyin word . It must  be " Ding"  , but  there are several  characters  which  could be   written   as  "Ding"
  e.g  丁  仃 顶 订    etc  

Cheers  Peter

* If  you   type  in Chinese  you  can  insert a  "?"   into the  title  of a   file  !  Now there's a thing  !
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« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2011, 02:51:52 pm »



6. Another  interesting  thing........  if you  look at the     English  text  of  Suo Zhenhai  in CIPMA  you   will see  references  to  the   fact that  SZH  studied  under  various  "modern  artists  ... Li Keran,    etc". I  can't  find these  names  anywhere,  so   either  they  are  completely forgotten  Modern School  IPB  artists,  or they were   canvas  artists
(I suspect the  latter )

Link to full article...

I stumbled upon this article about Suo ZhenHai.. Mentions his tutor Ye Xiao Feng. 

Also mentions different painting mediums:

"SuoZhenHai is also an artist with various medias which including Chinese painting, wood print, inner painting of snuff bottle, paper cut, enamel craft."

"Suo also exchange with the master of Beijing inner painting genre such as Yexiaofeng, Yeshuying, Yeshulan, Liushouben."

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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2012, 08:26:43 am »

Hi Peter, Pat, and all,

Yesterday I was talking with the owner of a local Chinese restaurant and telling him he needs to collect something. He said he didn't have big money to invest, so I suggested inside painted snuff bottles of the Very Modern period.  I told him that he should buy good bottles now and they will appreciate over the next 5 to 10 years.  So I asked for his email address and it turns out his family name is Liu.  I told him that there are famous IPSB artists with that name and that I would email him some information.  First I searched the internet and found some interesting information.  When I searched the forum I found this very interesting thread.

I noticed that there were some open questions about Liu Shouben, so I thought that the following might be appropriate to add here.  Almost as if the China Daily was following this thread Smiley, they published an article about Liu Shouben with some interview comments on May 18, 2011 - just a few days after this discussion. The article in part:

Liu was introduced to the art form at the age of 17, in 1960, when he learned traditional Chinese painting and inside-bottle painting at the same time in a factory with several "classmates".

"There were no so-called talents or gifts. All of us had no background in it. It was like hopping on a random train. You ended up wherever it took you," Liu said.

The "train" used to send students to Liu regularly in the 1970s and 1980s, when he sometimes had as many as 40 apprentices. But the figure quickly dropped to four when the policy changed and no jobs were allocated to the young.

Liu said if the government does not come up with policies to support the art form, soon no one in Beijing will know how to practice the craft.

Liu's works sell for more than 20,000 yuan, and a basic crystal bottle sells for about 2,000 yuan.

Some bottles on the market cost only about 50 yuan but, Liu said, they are not fully hand-painted. Using photolithography, the lines of the paintings in the cheap bottles are copied, with the colors then filled in by hand.

Some of Liu's students have already become famous craftsmen in their own right. Yet Liu is still desperate to recruit more.

"I will be more than happy if young people come to me to learn the craft," he said. "But they'll have to stay with me for at least two years, not a few hours or a few days," he said.

The link to the whole article:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-05/18/content_12529556.htm





* Liu Shouben China Daily May11.jpg (52.13 KB, 465x603 - viewed 1 times.)
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Tom B.

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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2012, 08:49:33 am »

Also found that Liu Shouben was a Middle Period artist.  Wink

From Bonham's Sale 18369 - Fine Snuff Bottles from the Collection of Margaret Polak, 24 Mar 2010
580 Madison Avenue, New York

Lot No: 181

An inside-painted glass snuff bottle 玻璃內畫雪汀落雁圖鼻煙壺
Liu Shouben, 1931 劉守本
Of simple cylindrical form with a recessed foot and a circular footrim, painted with a continuous scene of geese and reeds against a caramel ground, titled xueting luoyan tu (geese on snow-covered band), dated xingwei (1931), signed Liu Shouben, with one seal painted in red; collared green quartz stopper.
3 1/4in (7.9cm) high


Sold for $2,745 inclusive of Buyer's Premium

http://www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/18369/lot/181/

I guess that it never occurred to them that it could be 1991. Smiley

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« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2012, 09:38:05 am »

Hi Tom

Liu Shouben   was born in  1943.    He  is  considered  the  " Father"  of the  Jing  school  based in BJ .

It's  true  that he  had a lot  of  students  in the  past,  but  for some reason  the  students  all  dropped   off a  few years  ago, so  now  it seems no-one  wants  to  study  under  him ,  unlike   Wang Xisan  who  has  continued to  inspire    students   ( and students  of  students, and  students of  students  of  students .... to the   7th  or  8th  generation )

There  are very  few   VMIPB  artists  on any  real   fame  in the   Jing School . I just   searched  my  data base and  found  about   30  artists  listed  in the  Jing School,  but  all  except  Liu Shouben  himself and  a couple  of  other    artists  who  are currently  painting ( eg  Zhang  Baohua) ,    ALL the  other   JIng  school  artists  are  only cited  in J. H. Lung's  book " A new Look  of  Inside  Painted  Snuff Bottles"  which  was published  in  the  early  1990s,  which meant  J H Leung  collected    those  Jing  School   artist bottles  in the  late  1970s and   1980s.  after  which   the   artists  vanished  from sight. 

Cheers   Peter
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« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2012, 09:41:11 am »

Hi again

BTW : Liu is a  very common name  in Chinese.  I counted  about   40  artists  in my database  with the   surname   Liu

Liu Shouben  is  certainly  a  Modern  school  artists, not a late  Middle  school  artist

Cheers   Peter

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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2013, 04:35:24 am »

Dear all,

There is an interesting book published in August 1992 and it is an overview of the ceramics and glass trades of Zibo ( 淄博 ) in Shandong. I attached the front cover of the book which I bough some years ago. It was compiled by the Zibo city's Committee for Research of Historical Materials and published by the Shandogn University.
In the section on Glass, there is a substantial write-up on IP and IP artists of Shandong ( Lu School ). Some interesting accounts I did not know before.
One account is related to Bi Rong Jiu ( 毕荣九 ). Bi has a disciple called 袁永谦 (Yuan Yong Qian ) [ 1885 - 1938 ] who mastered Bi's style and used to produced IP bottles for around 10 years for a glass supplier known as 仁和成料货庄 ( Ren He Cheng Glass Supply Store ). Because of the price appreciation of Bi Rong Jiu bottles after he died, the Ren He Cheng store , for the purpose of profiteering, ever let Yuan to sign bottles Yuan painted in Bi Rong Jiu's style ( i.e. faking Bi's work ) ! Bi Rong Jiu died in 1925.

Regards

Inn bok

Regards,

Inn Bok


* Shandong SB history.JPG (82.99 KB, 480x640 - viewed 7 times.)
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