Another red lacquer bottle

[Pat - 查尚杰]

All

Here is a link I saved a while ago that may help:

http://www.realorrepro.com/article/Cinnabar

[Brad]

Hi Joey,

The more I look I am beginning to see that the cinnabar bottles on eBay all look like fakes.  None have the look of my grandmother's pin, even the ones going for really big prices.  And yes it would be pretty hard to tell without seeing it in person and feeling it.  The mother of pearl one appears to look more like it than most of the others.

I haven't seen any Japanese examples but I suppose they are shown in the Stevens book, which I just got from the library yesterday.  Not surprising that Japanese examples would be superb - I have found a lot of Japanese cloisonne to surpass the Chinese in attractiveness.  I've seen some fine Japanese metalwork as well.

I can relate to your love of cinnabar.  I always liked my grandmother's pin - the color, the texture, the fine carving, and the fact that it contains mercury, a more or less forbidden and vilified substance nowadays.  I'm getting the idea that real cinnabar bottles are probably far rarer than I imagined, and thus will be very costly.  I may have to wait a while before I can afford one or even find one.  I might be better off starting into snuff bottles with something more obtainable.  I've always liked enamel and cloisonne, so perhaps that would be a better place to begin.

Again I really do appreciate all your help and advice. 

Brad

[Wattana]

  I'm getting the idea that real cinnabar bottles are probably far rarer than I imagined, and thus will be very costly.  I may have to wait a while before I can afford one or even find one.  I might be better off starting into snuff bottles with something more obtainable.  I've always liked enamel and cloisonne, so perhaps that would be a better place to begin.

Hi Brad,

That is probably a sensible decision. In 40 years of collecting I have only handled 3 or 4 genuine cinnabar lacquer bottles. And all were priced beyond my reach. That will give you some indication of their rarity and value.

With patience and perseverance you will some day find one that fits your taste and your pocket, but it may be a long wait.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brad,
      The only Japanese lacquer bottle in Stevens is #753, which doesn't show the flair and style of the best Japanese lacquer.
Does anyone have access to  the Spring 1982 (XIV,1) Journal cover?  The bottle on bottom left is what I and I think Charll, are talking about. In the O'Dell Collection catalogue, #64 and #66 are  obviously Japanese, though not so described. Of course the one on the Journal cover is not, either.
      There was a wonderful collection of Japanese Lacquer snuff bottles in a display of Japanese snuff bottles, at our 2011 Palm Beach FL. ICSBS convention. It belongs to Trammell Crow Jnr. in Dallas, TX and Robert Hall arranged to have it shown. I'm sure Charll spent a lot of time admiring the bottles when we were at the Morikami Museum in Delray Beach, where they were on display. I know I did.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

[rpfstoneman]

I'm sure Charll spent a lot of time admiring the bottles when we were at the Morikami Museum in Delray Beach, where they were on display. I know I did.

Joey as you surmised, yes I did!  Those bottles gave me a target of quality to shoot for. Charll

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Charll,
     May G-D Help you find some; because if you do, I might too! I searched for 30-35 years for that quality of Japanese example.
Best,
 Joey

I'm sure Charll spent a lot of time admiring the bottles when we were at the Morikami Museum in Delray Beach, where they were on display. I know I did.

Joey as you surmised, yes I did!  Those bottles gave me a target of quality to shoot for. Charll

[Brad]

Some more pictures, just for comparison.  The first is an alleged cinnabar box I bought at an antique shop roughly ten years ago.  It is more of a vermilion color than my grandmother's pin, but no air bubbles and the carving looks similar.  It has blue enamel inside and on the bottom, with no marks.

The other two are another bottle that is on eBay for $280.  It looks a little better than some of the others, and the shape is different.  It has marks on the bottom, against a black background.   It has the white spoon many others have that looks to me like plastic.

Brad

[George]

er.
Does anyone have access to  the Spring 1982 (XIV,1) Journal cover?  The bottle on bottom left is what I and I think Charll, are talking about.

Here ya go Joey..

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Thank you, George. Helpful and prompt as always. 
   Brad this is a great Japanese Cinnabar Lacquer bottle, ca.1850-1930, oddly enough not given a Chinese attribution and falsely attributed to ca. 1750-1825. Of course this was in the 'old days' of 1982 ( ), when most people weren't as well informed as today. The O'Dell Catalogue has other Japanese bottles attributed to Qianlong period and Palace Workshops, when they are 50-100 years later in date and made 1100 miles farther East... 
    We've come a long way in 32 years...
Joey