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IP Calligraphy

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AntPeople
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« on: July 20, 2014, 01:20:36 am »

Hi All :

I am thinking of getting 1 or 2 mordern IP calligraphy bottles as my next purchase, so far
I only manage to find 一丁 (YiDing) on the web and his bottles are nice in my opinion.

Could any one please give me some advises on mordern IP calligraphy bottles....

Also, is there any dealers or places that I can buy the bottles from for these artists ?

B/S : I recently visited Kwok Gallery in Singapore ..... (The only snuff bottle gallery that is listed in ICSB website for Singapore).... Does anyone know if there's any other place in Singapore that also sell Snuff bottles... Thanks  a lot

YeePin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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richy88
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2014, 02:02:53 am »

Hi YeePin

There are not many places to buy bottles in Singapore. There were a few shops in Tanglin Shopping Centre that used to have some bottles but these shops, Moon Gate and Asian Collections are no longer in business. The other shops there do sell some bottles but mostly of average quality.

Even Patrick from Kwok Gallery, the only ICSBS dealer member from Singapore does not have many stock either.

Having said that, most local collectors tend to buy from dealers or auction houses but they are getting very expensive. The more common practice these days is to trade among fellow collectors. It can be a straight buy & sell transaction or even barter trade. This results in getting better bottles with a more reasonable price.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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YT
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2014, 02:43:59 am »

Dear Yee Pin,

Did you buy any good stuff in Kwok gallery?

I'm always looking at Ebay lol


Dear Richard,

Thought everyone also wants to collect the best. Do people really trade with each other?
Thanks.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2014, 02:59:40 am »

Hi YT

Thanks for your feedback.

Yes, I agreed that every collector would like to collect the best.

However, 'the best' is a very subjective term. What is your best may not be mine. As you can see, snuff bottles come in all sort of materials and artistic techniques. Therefore, different collectors will have different focus. Just take a look at some members in this forum, some collect only modern inside-painted, some porcelain, some glass, others organic. The list goes on. Personally, I am more into hardstone bottles such as jade and chalcedony.

People trade for all sorts of reasons; some lose interest after a while and started collecting other stuff, some change their focus to only certain type of bottles (example: Joey). Some just need the extra cash to buy another dream bottle (many of us do!). So trading among collectors is definitely possible and is happening all the time. In fact, I have traded a few times with fellow local collectors in the past few years.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2014, 04:12:11 am »

Dear Richard,

    I read this post with great interest. You are correct in everything you wrote, but I'd like to add one condition:
In order that there not be discord and problems, it is important that there be great trust between the two parties.

    The ONLY person I have ever felt comfortable trading bottles with, in my 44+ years of collecting, was Rick of New Orleans, who's a member of the Forum (though I often chide him that he isn't contributing commensurate with his knowledge: He has more knowledge than me, has been at this longer than me, was a dealer many years, and is a board-certified GIA gemologist as well.).

    We have traded bottles one for one. We were able to do this because we both knew that the values of the two bottles were equal in the market, and we trusted each other implicitly. I have had and now have, many many friends in the snuff bottle world, whether in the ICSBS or the Forum; there were doubtless others I could have trusted or trust now.

    But not only do the two parties have to trust each other's honesty and knowledge and their own; the two bottles must be equal in value, or one should add some cash or other additional value, so that the two lots are exactly equal. I have found it easier just to buy, rather than trade. The only times I sold, I did through Sotheby's London(big mistake!), Clare Lawrence LTD (now Asian Art Studio, Clare Chu), Christie's HK or Sotheby's HK.

Best,
 Joey


Hi YT

Thanks for your feedback.

Yes, I agreed that every collector would like to collect the best.

However, 'the best' is a very subjective term. What is your best may not be mine. As you can see, snuff bottles come in all sort of materials and artistic techniques. Therefore, different collectors will have different focus. Just take a look at some members in this forum, some collect only modern inside-painted, some porcelain, some glass, others organic. The list goes on. Personally, I am more into hardstone bottles such as jade and chalcedony.

People trade for all sorts of reasons; some lose interest after a while and started collecting other stuff, some change their focus to only certain type of bottles (example: Joey). Some just need the extra cash to buy another dream bottle (many of us do!). So trading among collectors is definitely possible and is happening all the time. In fact, I have traded a few times with fellow local collectors in the past few years.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2014, 05:00:56 am »

Hi Joey

I agreed with what you said.

Yes, if the value of the bottles traded were of different value, one will have to top up the amount to make up the difference.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2014, 05:03:01 am »

Hi Richard :

Thanks for the information......Its really not easy to find anything related to snuff bottles in Singapore.... Even when I go kino.... There's only like 1 book for the subjects. I guess I would need to buy books from oversea.....

YT :

Kwok gallery probably has about 30 bottles ....most of them are agate bottles, some porcelain and glass bottles.

I only took a look at 2 of them.....

One is a classic golden brown glass bottle with gold flake in it..... The cover is made from a nice piece of jadeite and the spoon probably a bone material. Patrick said that it's middle Qing period. The bottle is nice and elegantly made....but the price is also elegantly tag at S$4700.

The other one that I take a look is a porcelain bottle that has blue/green glaze with tiny blown pinkish circles.... It's from the DaoGuang period and it's priced at S$2500 if I remember correctly.

The hard stones bottles are not very exciting in my opinion....

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http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2014, 06:40:51 am »

Hi Guys,

Derek Ong is described in the JICSBS as a snuff bottle dealer from Singapore. Does he not carry stock?  He was certainly doing a lot of bidding in a recent Bloch auction!

Tom
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2014, 06:50:24 am »

Hi Tom

I know Derrick (Derek) Ong very well.

He started as a marketing agent for the inside painted artists from China in the 80/90's. Most of the collectors from the Nanyang Group (collects modern inside painted bottles only) bought most of their bottles from him.

The last few years, his business had been badly affected as these collectors started to buy directly from the artists, cutting out his role as a middle man. He then started to look into other works of art as well as snuff bottle of other materials. It is then that he developed an interesting in collecting them as opposed to keeping them as stock.

He has been bidding actively in the Bloch's sales, mainly on behalf of some of his clients.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard


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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 07:01:48 am »

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the background information!

Regards,
Tom
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 07:52:32 am »

Hi Yee Pin

Kwok Gallery has more snuff bottles when Patrick's father was running the business. I remembered I bought an inside painted bottle by Liu Shouben from the elder Kwok but even then, the price was not cheap. But it was a master piece and I considered it a fair price at that time.

Much later, most dealers suffered the same dilemmas of shortage of good quality stock. As Stanley Yang from Y. F. Yang in Hong Kong once told me: he  can only get mid range quality bottles which is neither here or there. To the collectors, the quality are not good enough, to the tourists, they are too expensive as souvenirs.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 09:01:40 am »

Dear Yee Pin and Richard,

Thanks. If it's neither here nor there in terms of quality then we just have to rely on ourselves in the smaller auction houses and EBay.
I just bought a few post 1940 bottles. Think that will be a good start.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2014, 09:23:21 am »

Hi YT

When it comes to purchase, we always have to rely on ourselves to judge the bottle. There is no shortcut. (Of course, some will rely purely on the dealer, but that's a minority).

More so when buying online as you do not have the luxury to examine the physical product.

Regards.


Richard

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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 12:32:40 pm »

Hi  All

I'm a  late  comer  to this   thread.

Sorry  -  I  was  on  holiday

Is  Kwok  gallery  the    shop  in Orchard   Road  ( sort  of  sub- basement    shop )  ?
 Sells  a  lot  of  antique    Chinese   stuff   and  has a  little   section  on  VMIPBs ?

RICHARD :  Please   confirm !

If  so,  I  visited  the   shop   when I  was  last  in S'pore  2012  and  met  Richard  Baey  and   Yeo  Konghoo  and  some of  the  S'Pore   Nanyang  group.

I  found  the  listed  prices   at  the  Kwok  Gallery ( if  that's the    shop  I  visited)    about  3  -  4  x  the  true  market  price,  but  I  did  not   try  to  negotiate . 

That's the  same    for  prices  in  HK's   CAC  (China   Arts  and  Crafts ).  Listed  prices  are  3  - 4  x   the  true  market  price,  but  one  can negotiate a   50 - 60%  discount    so   finally  one  pays  only  about    50%  more  than  "direct  from  artist"  price,  which is  a   fair   commission  for the   shop.

Re  calligraphy  bottles  :   that's  an  esoteric    collector's  item  ! 

I have   two   superb   Nie Lei   1000 x   character  bottles   which  I  bought  for    rock-bottom   prices  of  US$1,000   each a  few  years   ago .    I  will  never  part  with  them .

Certainly  Nie Lei  aka  Yi  Ding  is   THE  current  master ,  but  he  his  eyesight  has  deteriorated    so he  cannot  paint  the   super- fine   1000 x   character  bottles  any longer.  He   told  me  he  only  painted   30  such  bottles  in  his  lifetime.   I  was    in his  Hengshui   shop  in May  this  year  and  he  was   quoting    about  RMB 10,000  for   some  excellent  recent  calligraphy   bottles  (I recall  I  posted  them  on the  Forum :  I   post again a   copy of  one  such  bottle  ) 

I  would  be  happy  to  arrange a  private   sale   from  Nie  Lei  to  anyone  seriously  interested   at  zero  commission ,  although  there  would  be  some   expensive    shipping   charges to make  sure  the  bottle    arrives  safely.  I   do  know  Nie  Lei  personally. 

But  for a   truly  reliable   sale  I  would   recommend  to  go  though  Jill  Guo Jie   ( ICSBS  member - dealer)  who  is  used  to   handle  international sales. I can  put  you  in  touch . I am   NOT a  dealer 

The  only  other   current   calligraphy  master  is  Miss  Li  Ruchen .  Last  time  I   saw  one  of  her  bottles   for  sale   was  in SH    and  the  price   was   close  to  RMB 40,000 ,  but  I  reckon that   could be  negotiated    down to  RMB 25,000 - 30,000.

That's  all  for  now

Hope  the  pics   come  through  OK !

Cheers

Peter

PS:  YT  and   Yee  Pin  :  You   really need  a  copy  of  my  data  base !   Price   till end  of    this  year  is  US$50  to   Forum members (only).  You can  order  via  Paypal  and   I will  send  you  on  USB  stick.  Currenly  11  GB.

After that   the  price   goes  to  US$500   because  next  year  I   will include   scans  of  books  that  have  have  cost me   over  US$ 2,000  to  buy,  let  alone   the   time  to   scan  and    file 

 





* CC Nie Lie .jpg (27.93 KB, 336x427 - viewed 13 times.)

* CC Li Ruchen @ CIPMA.jpg (52.29 KB, 1024x685 - viewed 8 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2014, 01:43:32 pm »

I am also interested in bottles with Calligraphy only. I have been in contact with Guo Jie (Jill) and she is lining up plain quartz blanks for me to choose and have painted by the top calligraphy artists in the different styles (kaishu, lishu, zhuanshu, caoshu, xingkaishu, etc.).  I will be choosing bottles, calligrapher and inscription material in Beijing after the Beijing portion of the convention this coming October.
Best,
 Joey
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2014, 03:31:05 pm »

Hi  Joey

I'm  sure  Jill    will   set  you   up  very  well   with    the   current   top   calligraphers

I  just  came  back  from   an  epic   Europe   trip   with  Jill and  her  husband,  Li  Hui,  which  included a    stop-over   at  my  Nephew's     farm  in  France  :  100  hectares  =  1   sq  km ! 

I  defer  to Jill   completely  on   sales  matters   relating  to   VMIPBs.

I  am  NOT  a   dealer  !

Cheers

Peter

PS:    When  you  visit  my  home    you  will  see    two   mouth-watering    calligraphy  masterpieces  by  Nie  Lie  .  I  only  picked  them  up  "by chance"    at    rock  bottom  /  much  under-valued   prices,  but  now  I  understand     their   true  value .   

All  this  is  to  be  ahead  of   time !





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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2014, 05:52:01 pm »

Dear Peter,
    I saw your postings of your calligraphy bottles by Nie Lie, with 1000 characters each. They are superb.
Joey
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