Old versus New

[seadancer1]

As I read the many replys to different posts, I see that often a member will ask for i.d on a snuff bottle they have......and the answer more often than not is that it is a modern reproduction. Thats ok, but how is it judged....what do I and others who are not very educated in this area, look for to tell the difference. It is often said go look at museum collections, auctions ect and get to know through handeling and seeing in the flesh. Unfortunately not everyone is able to do that for various reasons, such as myself....aged, disabled and unable to drive. I must rely on the internet and books. But its hard if I dont know what to look for.
So how about it guys....give your hints and clues that will help the newbie ect to judge what they are looking for in a snuff bottle that tells them new or old. I have had so much help from you guys, I want to thank you for every little bit you have done to make the beginning of my collection something to be proud of. 
Cheers, Brenda

[YT]

Dear Brenda,

That's a good question for us newbies. I am waiting for some of arriving snuff bottles to be trash, but if they appear otherwise then I just consider myself lucky. Pictures can be photo-shopped easily.

My other option is to spend more and look for items with provenance. Not many around and they can be quite dear.

Cheers,
YT

[rpfstoneman]

Brenda,

I've been purchasing as many snuff bottle auction catalogs as I can for less than $20 each since 2005.  Also, other collectors have graciously given me books and their extra auction catalogs over the years.  Each night I put myself to sleep looking through a catalog or a snuff bottle book I've acquired.   In addition I usually monitor snuff bottle listings on Ebay once a day and have been doing so since 1998.  On the weekends or when I have a few free minutes to spare here or there I'm online looking at "Live Auctioneers", "Invaluable", or "The Salesroom" online auction listings.  Then I'm on the Forum comparing these mentioned references and online reviews to discussions and posted bottles here.  After awhile you start to become familiar with bottle shapes of different periods, color palettes uses, clues on pottery or how well the bottle is constructed or how well a hardstone design is ground, you notice ware patterns from use, natural vs artificial patinas, spoon and stopper shapes designs of different periods, etc.  Once you have done this type of reading, review and monitoring, modern or contemporary bottles (i.e., post 1950) become rather evident and relatively easy to identify.  It's the old bottles that still give me troubles! 

Charll 

[Wattana]

Hi Brenda,

Golden words from Charll. Old catalogues, books and e-auctions are the next best thing to handling actual bottles, which most of us rarely get to do.

Tom

[George]

If asking in regards to the desire to collect antique (E - Early 1880-1870, MP - Middle Period 1870-1950 ) bottles, and being disappointed to find a bottle modern ?

The judgments come from experience. The education comes from books, as well the aid from those with more experience.  Not to mention the luxury of hands on opportunities, and or the good eye for online buying. Then there are the normal trials and tribulations it seems that most novice collectors just sort of have to go through. Especially if they lack access to the education, books, and the aid from those more experienced.

As for desired Modern Period .. 1950 to 1990, or VM - Very Modern Period .. Post 2000 CIPMA - Chinese Inside Painting of the Modern Age, I believe the same applies..

I might suggest to choose a niche type of bottle medium or possibly two. Rather than try to take in learning about all the various mediums.. This can help in choosing how to proceed with an education.. What books best fit your best desired type of bottle medium. Then slowly proceed from there..

I still primarily stick to E, and MP inside painted, but have great interest in blue/white or famille rose porcelain, and also enamel on glass. I am not the smartest guy, and do have troubles retaining information, so these few niche mediums have, and will keep me learning for years to come before I consider adding any new ones..

 

 

[seadancer1]

I"m not really worried about a bottle I buy so much, because I buy what I feel is attractive to me. But age comes into it if for no other reason than curiosity and its frustrating not to be able to tell with some bottles whether its new or old.....particularly those that are hardstone or those made in the old style. It can be bewildering if you dont know what you are looking for when dating a bottle. Thats why when someone says a bottle is modern, it would help if the person gives the reasons why he thinks so....that way those things can be looked for next time. 
Cheers, Brenda

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brenda,
    I started collecting when I was just a month before my 13th birthday. When I look at a bottle, whether it is old or new, or new trying to portray itself as old, usually jumps out at me almost immediately. I would venture a guess that it is the same for Tom.
   But I will try to give reasons for my judgement call in future.
Best,
  Joey

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  Brenda

Good   question ,  but  no  simple   answer

BTW  :  I  think  you mean  versus  (rather  than  verses )

I cannot  comment  on  any   snuff bottles  except  IPBs ( Inside  Painted  Bottles)   but  after  approximately   10  years    collecting  and  2  years  =  4,000  hours  of  data  base   work   in my spare   time  I  think I  can reliably   spot a  genuine  versus a  fake  Modern  IPB  (  MIPB),  i.e. post  1960 ,  and  certainly    a  fake  Very  MIPB (VMIPB) i.e.  post - 2000

I personally  know a  Beijing  dealer  who  now  makes  most  of  his  income  by  spotting   REAL    antique  snuff  bottles   at  minor ( and  sometimes  even  major)   auctions  on-line  and   snapping  up  those  which   are  under-priced.  The  said  dealer  then   re-sells  at a  big  profit  in  Mainland  China  having   got the  bottles  to hand    and   verified   the  vintage  at  first  sight.  But  that  takes  a lifetime  of  experience .

That's  "Hugh Moss" -  type  pedigree experience.

In a  word  -  there's  no  short   cut   except  blood, sweat,  tears  and  many  MANY  mistakes.

Sorry....

Cheers

Peter

PS:  But  when  it  comes  to   VMIPBs   there's  another  factor  that comes  into  play :  the  inherent  "beauty"  of a painting  inside  a   bottle.  That's  something  not  easy  to  define,  and  - like  a  taste  in any  art,  or  good  wine  -  only comes   with   age  and  experience.

 But as  a  total  art-neanderthal, I  put  it  to  you  that  anyone   with a  true  sense  of  "beauty"  can easily   'spot the   difference'

I think I  can now  reliably   sense   real "beauty"  in  VMIPBs   and  see talent  where  it  genuinely  exists.   Which is  why  most  of  my recent  VMIPB  purchases  have  been  way  ahead  of the  general  market, 

[seadancer1]

You guys are right......I guess its a matter of experience over time.

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi

Yes  :  blood  sweat  and  tears ,  and  a LOT of  mistakes  !

My  mentor   in  VMIPBs  was  Bill   Patrick  <www.snuffbottlecollector.com>

Bill  has  over   600  x  VMIPBs 

When  I  "confessed"  to  Bill that  over   1/3  of  my  collection,  with  hindsight,    were  mistakes   he   said  that  was  par  for  the  course ( indeed    under  -  par !) 

But  gradually  -  VERY  GRADUALLY  -    I  acquired  a  taste for  "La creme   de  la  creme" of  VMIPBs. 

Last  year  Berthe  and   John  Ford  ( ICSBS   current  and  past  Presidents)  visited  my  HK  home  as  part  of the  preparation  for  the   2014   Convention.  My  300  +  collection is   arrayed   by    shelf /   display   cabinet    according to    artist   skill   :  mistakes  /  private  interest ( cats,  spiders   etc)  /  OK-ish   /  Super  /  THE REAL  THING !

John  Ford  immediately  zeroed  in  on THE  REAL  THING    bottles    and  paid    no  attention  to  the  others.  He  could   "spot the    difference"  immediately  ,  even  though  he  ( as  far  as  I  know)  is  no   VMIPB  specialist .

Some  of  those   bottles   are  now  only   for   sale   at  prices   far   exceeding  Bloch   IPB     auction  prices  -  that's  if   they  ever  come  on the  market (  which  they  don't) 

My    sole  advice  for  all new    collectors   is  that  to :

a)  buy  purely  for  passion , because   passion  never  dies

b)  research,  research,  RESEARCH 

Cheers
Peter

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Peter,
   That is very interesting, because to the best of my knowledge (and I've known the man for 36 years), he has NO interest in MIPSBs at all. But he has a great eye for quality...
Best,
 Joey

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  Joey

Yes  -   John  Ford   immediately    recognized  quality   when  he   saw   it 
 
I now  own   some   priceless  Fu  Guoshun  masterpieces  because  I   recognized  his  talent    well  ahead  of   time    (same   for some  other   budding   Masters )

I   do  not   count  the   value  of  these  masterpieces 

I  only   enjoy   the   daily  visage   of their   works

Cheers

Peter