Another lacquer bottle

[Brad]

This is a lacquer bottle I saw for sale recently.  It looks a bit more genuine to me than the other bottle I just posted.  I don't see any bubbles and there appear to be tool marks.  It looks more like carving than the other one (that one looks like a molding to me).  This one is a slightly different color, more of a vermilion red.

Could this have been a real cinnabar lacquer bottle? 

My goal is to obtain a real red lacquer bottle dating from 1900 to around 1930.  I want to learn more before making any more purchases.  I have seen many bottles for sale, but they look either like this one or the other one I posted (mostly like that one).

Brad

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brad,
    This bottle looks very nice! If still for sale, and reasonably priced this could be the bottle you are looking for, though I assume you'd not mind if it was a little earlier in dating. 
Best,
 Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

[Brad]

Hi Joey,

No I don't think it is, but I did think it looked more like real cinnabar than many I've seen.  The spoon wasn't plastic, no air bubbles were visible and the color looked right.  How old do you think it could be?

Brad

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brad,
   I think the style is more Japanese than Chinese, but that is not a problem; many Japanese lacquer bottles were made in Japan for the Chinese market. I would date it ca. 1860-1940, though I do better with a bottle 'live' (in my hand) as opposed to over the internet.
   Steven could better judge than me, over the internet.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

[George]

Would need to see some close up images to be sure...

Steven is away for about another week or more...

Here is a topic that is really informative to help you compare and learn from for future possible purchases.. ..
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1132.0.html

[Brad]

This is a photo of the bottom of the bottle and what is supposed to be a mark.  It looks unreadable to me.  I had saved one other picture of it but haven't found it yet. I have so many pictures on my computer I can't always find them when I need them.  If I recall correctly the seller called this a gilded mark.

I've been reading the posts in this forum about cinnabar bottles and they are very informative.  Air bubbles are a definite bad sign.  This bottle did not appear to have air bobbles.

Brad

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brad,
    1. I have never seen such a mark before.
2. I assume by 'bobbles' you mean 'bubbles'; good there are none. 
Best,
 Joey

[Brad]

Joey,

Yes that was a typo.  Sorry about that.  I did it in a hurry.

It doesn't look like much of a mark.  Maybe it's something the maker tried to do make it look old, and it didn't turn out very well.

Brad

[George]

Very strange stamping indeed..

[Brad]

This bottle was actually still for sale until about 7 pm this evening (it was relisted because the other buyer did not pay), along with another almost exactly like it from the same seller.  That one had a few air bubbles so I guess along with this unknown mark it's safe to say they are fakes.   I'm glad I did not make another bad buy.  The previous winner probably had a good reason to back out of the deal (even though that's a wrong thing to do once you've committed to buy).

I guess the question I should be asking to start out is, is it wise to even be looking for snuff bottles on eBay?  Hundreds are always listed, and most of them come directly from China.  I'm aware many snuff bottles are Chinese in origin, and am also aware that in the past the Chinese were great craftsman.  But I'm also aware that today China has degenerated into one of the most morally corrupt places on earth, and products made there are of the worst possible quality. 

I'm not wealthy like many of you here probably are, so I don't want to make any more bad purchases.  I've already bought two bottles that are worthless.   I don't have aspirations of becoming a serious collector, but as a lover or Oriental art I'd like to eventually obtain a few nice examples.  So is eBay a bad place to look?  If so, where should I be looking?

Brad

[George]

Trust me Brad.. Neither am I wealthy, and can not afford to make bad purchases, but I have ! 

I have purchased a great deal from eBay, and others here will not consider it.. Have purchased many nice ones..

Yes, hundreds are listed, and 99.99 % are junk.. I have got to where I can scroll through a page in about two seconds scanning the pics as they go by until something nice does catch my eye.. That is rare, but worth the hunt !

One think it has taken me a long time to learn is patience ...  Steven mentioned the other day how he has slowed down to just one purchase a month... One nice one instead of several that are average..  I am trying hard to start this same practice.. 

Some of us also use Live Auctioneers..
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=snuff+bottle&org=yes&dtype=gallery&type=live&rows=20&addfq=&fq=&location=&sort=activity&by_date=2014-07-13T12%3A20%3A03.380Z

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Brad,
   George is on one side of that debate, and I am on the other. I NEVER buy on eBay, because I don't trust my judgement over the internet. Having said that, I feel the bottle I thought was Japanese, was good, but may have been copied by taking a mold from it, which would enable the person to make copies. What is to stop a shady operator from posting the original and then sending a modern copy?
   But Steven, on the Forum, has had great success in finding genuine top quality examples on eBay, and I've bought a few from him.
   I personally, tend to buy from dealers, from fellow collectors and from auctions. In each case, I see the bottle 'live', before I buy it.
   What materials/types/subjects are you interested in collecting? If we knew that, we might be able to suggest better ways to collect.
   For example, if you like VMIPSBs (Very Modern Inside Painted Snuff Bottles), a reputable dealer from the PRC (and there are a few; sadly ONLY a few), Jill Guo Jie, puts out a catalogue every year, sold on a first come, first served basis.
  Also, David Osborne, a transplanted Englishman in Alberta Canada, runs a Snuff Bottle Club, where they show bottles, a few a week, and you contact him with your one-time highest bid on the bottle you want. After the time is up (a week), he lists the bids, and  the top bidder gets it at US$1 over the second highest bid, plus US$10±/shipping & handling.
  He is TOTALLY reputable. I and four others on the Forum have all bought from him, with 100% satisfaction.
Best,
   Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Brad,
“is it wise to even be looking for snuff bottles on eBay?”: yes, as long as you have an adequate knowledge. If you buy something only because it is stated that it is antique, then the answer is no.
“But I'm also aware that today China has degenerated into one of the most morally corrupt places on earth, and products made there are of the worst possible quality. “: I don’t agree on both assertions. I live in Italy and for sure my Country too is very corrupted; and I am sure there are other places too. It is true that in China they do a lot of counterfeit things, but that is other history. I don’t agree too about quality. In China today they do everything of most advanced technology, and with high quality too. It is true that they produce a lot of rubbish quality things but it is not correct to generalize. If you want something good you have to pay accordingly; less you spend, less you have.
“I've already bought two bottles that are worthless.”: only two? You are lucky! I have the garage full of garbage; that is normal, it is part of the learning curve.
“So is eBay a bad place to look?  If so, where should I be looking?”: do you think that if someone here knows a place were to buy good things at low price will give you the address? 
Joking apart, ebay is not a wrong place per se as long you know what you are buying. The bad side of ebay is that the whole World is looking there so it is very hard to make a steal. Every place is good, really every place, with the only premise that you must have a proper competence. It happened to me to made good steal at flea markets, but not because there was a label on the item saying “I am a steal”. At the same time, how many good deals in other fields have I missed because of lack of proper competence?
Who knows, may be I was happy for having found a nice Chinese vase while close to it there was a super rare Persian carpet for a few bucks and I missed it because I have no competence on carpets?
In conclusion dear Brad keep an open eye, look around, but before that learn as much as you can by reading previous posts here, buying books and going to Museum and the preview of the major Auction houses.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Wattana]

Hi Brad,

I cannot add anything more to Giovanni's comments. We all go through a learning curve, but self-restraint is the best way to avoid making too many bad purchases. In my first year of collecting I had more books on snuff bottles than snuff bottles. 

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brad,
    Giovanni's words are pure gold.

Dear Tom,
   In 1982, I met an older gentleman from Brooklyn, at the NYC ICSBS convention at the Waldorf that year. He was showing 50 or 60 of his bottles in the Members' Display that year (We used to have a room at each convention, like the Dealers' Room, with display cases, where collectors could show pieces they were especially proud of, not for sale.).
  They were the worst crap I'd ever seen!
  I asked him, "Mr. X, which books do you have?" His reply was "I don't buy books, just bottles". John Ford, at the time the president, interjected "And your bottles look like it!".
  Mr. X, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, beamed and said,"You can see that I put all my money into the bottles!"
He had paid a certain disreputable NY snuff bottle dealer, whose name rhymes with 'dung', to commission Liu Shouben to paint portraits of his kids. They were not done by Master Liu, or he was on drugs when he did them. They were horrible. 
Mr. X claimed someone had tried to sabotage his display, by putting a pimple on his son's nose on the bottle!
 I kid you not.
You were smart to learn first, and then start collecting.
And YOUR collection looks like it!
Best,
 Joey
 

[Brad]

Joey,

That is exactly why I am here asking questions instead of just buying bottles.  I have some other collections of other things and I have always been a pretty selective collector.  I think the best thing to do in collecting is to buy what you like.  That way you can enjoy what you've bought. 

I certainly thank all of you for your advice.  I think I have come to the right place.  It will probably be  awhile before I will get my hands a any really nice bottles, but patience is important in everything.  I know that from my experience with other types of collecting.

Brad

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Brad,
   You have the right attitude. I'm sure I speak for everyone on the Forum when I say we'll be happy to help you learn.
Best,
 Joey

[Brad]

Hi again everyone,

To answer some of your questions, cinnabar/red lacquer initially interested me because of an antique pin my grandparents had.  They said they also had a cinnabar box at one time, but it was stolen or lost.  These would've dated at least from the 20's.  They had a lot of oriental items (cloisonne vases, rugs, mud figures, brass, etc) so I acquired an interest in oriental art at a fairly young age.  I like insects and there are many insect motifs used in Chinese art (crickets, butterflies, etc).  I imagine there are cloisonne snuff bottles as well.  I still have all my family's stuff, but they never had any snuff bottles, so I always thought it would be nice to have a small grouping of different ones.

Beyond that I think inside/reverse painted bottles are interesting.  A bone or ivory bottle would be very nice too, but I know ivory is a very touchy subject and that alone probably would make an old ivory bottle very pricey.   There are probably many types of bottles I don't even know about.  I know there are bottles made of gourds and various metals.

Where would I find some good books on snuff bottles?  My local library has been tossing all their art-related books the past few years, so I know they do not have any.  I bought many of the books they sold but I don't recall any on snuff bottles.  I'm going to check Amazon - I'm sure some must be listed there.

Brad

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brad,
   Where are you located? North America/UK/Australia/?
Lilla Perry wrote a good book in 1960 on snuff bottles and collecting them. The Bob Stevens book from the 1970s is very good. The late Robert Kleiner's book on the George & Mary Bloch Collection, 1987 (I think) is also very good.
   Best,
 Joey

[Wattana]

Hi Brad,
    Joey has named three 'classics', which should be the foundation of any decent library on snuff bottles. In the early days (up to 1980) there were very few books dedicated to snuff bottles. Nowadays there seems to be one published every month.
    Amazon is a good place to look, but also try www.abebooks.com. Their website connects you to over 13,000 book dealers worldwide. Unlike Amazon, they offer old and out-of-print books as well as new. If you know the author or title you are after, their search tool will locate every copy on offer. You can usually pick up good second-hand copies for a very reasonable price. Depending on where you live, shipping can be quite cheap too.

Joey,
    Just loved your anecdote from the 1982 ICSBS Convention in NY. And thanks for your closing remark. Much appreciated!

Tom