How can you tell

[seadancer1]

I often see something described as being made in the palace workshops.....how is this reckognised, is there a particular mark or does it come down to workmanship?
Cheers, Brenda

[Wattana]

Hi Brenda,

People have written volumes trying to establish ways of recognizing 'palace workshop' authenticity. The answer is akin to a statement I once heard about whisky:  Chivas Regal produces 720,000* bottles of 12-year-old whisky a year, of which 1,280,000 bottles are sold in China.   

Tom
(Note* - I don't actually recall the exact numbers, but the proportion between production and sales is about right)

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dera Tom,
that's right, the same happens with Chianti wine, with proportions probably bigger. The area of production of Chianti is limited, and you can find bottles in any store around the World!
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brenda,
   Both gentlemen are correct, and both are wrong! 
   There were a number of recognised sources of bottles for the Imperial Court:
1. The Imperial Palace Workshops, in the Forbidden City in Beijing, which had separate ateliers for such things as metalware, painting,  glass, organic materials, hardstones including jades, and enamel wares (on glass, metal, and porcelain).
2. The Imperial Porcelain Kilns, in Jingdezhen, Jiangxi province (about 400 km. SW of Shanghai), which supplied Imperial porcelain wares to the Court. They also supplied the porcelain blanks enamelled in the Imperial Palace Workshops.
3. Private Workshops in Guangzhou (Canton), for enamels and metalware; Suzhou (Soochow), primarily for jade carving, but also including other hardstones; Fuzhou, for lacquer wares. And possibly others, but these are the ones known to me. The suppliers were private, but also commanded by the Court to supply 'Imperial Court Tribute' on occasion.

   We judge based on correct Imperial marks (it is known today that there were objects with the correct Official Imperial marks and those with correct, but not Official, marks.), references in Imperial registers (such as a description of 3 overlay glass snuff bottles with floral decoration, where the flowers and their foliage were identifiable, and each flower and its leaves were in the correct colour and shade, and the bottle was given a Qianlong Yuzhi mark [Qianlong By Imperial Command made], rather than the usual Qianlong nianzhi mark [Qianlong period made]. I acquired one of these bottles, with the info unknown to me or the seller.
  Then I found out, 4 years later, and was able to trade my bottle, which had cost me US$1,200, for 4 bottles worth a total of US$65,000!), and other information.
  Some of the reasoning is a bit circular (We know that the Imperial Workshops had the recipe for superb Ruby Red glass; we assume they didn't share it; so we also assume that all really superbly made Ruby Red glass snuff bottles and other wares are from the Palace Workshops. ).
  Who knows?     
Best,
Joey

[seadancer1]

Hmmmm......seems almost like educated guesswork! But then would that
sometimes lead to  dissagreements among the experts?
Cheers, Brenda

[Wattana]

But then would that sometimes lead to disagreements among the experts?

Hi Brenda,

You hit the nail on the head!   

Tom

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Yup.. because the self professed so called experts benefit personally and greatly.

Joey

Just to make sure .. not talking about you here..

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brenda,
   Tom and Pat are both correct.
   But it doesn't tend to cause disagreements between the dealers, because they agree to disagree quietly among themselves. This is their livelihood, after all.

Dear Pat,
    No offence taken, but to be totally honest, I'm as guilty of the "My stuff is the best quality" bug as the next collector. And I've decided that certain bottles were "Palace Workshops" based on my studies,  personal taste and gut reaction. And then been able to get them sold as such via Clare Chu (at the time Lawrence) and/or Sotheby's  or Christie's. So, in a way, you are not wrong, even about me.
    The difference between me and certain dealers or collectors, is that I would never knowingly portray as Palace Workshops or indeed antique, something I definitely knew was not.
   Best,
 Joey

[seadancer1]

But the difference in value from a mainstream to palace workshop item is too much for a 'yes it is... no it is'nt' judgment to be relied apon surely.....or, like opposing experts in a court case the judgment goes to the most convincing argument, but not necessarily the right one?  How many times has Christies or Sotherbys been accused privately by experts of getting it wrong for instance?
Cheers, Brenda

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brenda,
    You'd think, wouldn't you?  But they do rely on judgement calls, especially from 'expert' or wealthy collectors and dealers. And it is the experts who advise Sotheby's, Christie's, Phillips, etc.
Best,
 Joey

But the difference in value from a mainstream to palace workshop item is too much for a 'yes it is... no it is'nt' judgment to be relied apon surely.....or, like opposing experts in a court case the judgment goes to the most convincing argument, but not necessarily the right one?  How many times has Christies or Sotherbys been accused privately by experts of getting it wrong for instance?
Cheers, Brenda

[seadancer1]

What a pitty a tiny microscopic speck can't be taken from the item and identified by scientific comparison to known items. But I guess that would mean a few red faces......not to mention hits in the pocket! 
Cheers, Brenda

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Yup...   
Joey