Relief Carved rock crystal snuff bottle

[Bottleinpocket]

Late Qing Dynasty? Suzhou Style ? Any Idea?
Ps.my pic is too big to load up , so only parts of pics can be attached
Grant

[Wattana]

Hi Grant,

When you manage to reduce the image size it will be useful to see the entire bottle in one shot before being able to give an opinion.  Also size, and, as Steven mentioned for your enameled glass bottle, a shot of the mouth and foot too. 

Tom

[George]

Is this agate/chalcedony ?

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Looks like it to me ..

[George]

As far as I know, Suzhou carved bottles are all of Jade..

The low relief carving on your chalcedony, and overall style and shape does match a few 18th/19th Century examples I found ( image below ), and have a wide range of possible dates ranging between 1750 and 1895..

I think yours is a better than average carved bottle..

[Wattana]

As far as I know, Suzhou carved bottles are all of Jade..

George,

Suzhou carved bottles exist in both jade (nephrite, never jadeite) and chalcedony. In fact, many of the more spectacular ones tend to be made of chalcedony, where the various darker inclusions are used to maximum effect.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear George,
     Then you know wrong. 
     Suzhou was famous as a centre of jade carving. But there was also other hardstone carving there, and I had a Suzhou glass bottle, #24 in my 1987 catalogue, and from Rick Rhodes collection as well as the Norton Simon Museum's collection. In fact, so called Suzhou agates are more prevalent than identified Suzhou jades. That could be because Hugh Moss labeled a specific group of bottle "Suzhou School"...
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

As far as I know, Suzhou carved bottles are all of Jade..

The low relief carving on your chalcedony, and overall style and shape does match a few 18th/19th Century examples I found ( image below ), and have a wide range of possible dates ranging between 1750 and 1895..

I think yours is a better than average carved bottle..

[George]

Thank you for the clarification Joey !

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear George,
    I'm happy to help. But shouldn't the title be: Relief Carved chalcedony snuff bottle? It isn't rock crystal (crystalline quartz), though it is cryptocrystalline quartz, or chalcedony...
Joey

[George]

Well, Yes.. A chalcedony title would be best, but the owner of the bottle was not aware it not quartz until we started commenting.. If I change the title, it would not be in sinque with his first post.. So for the sake of "keeping the flow" of the thread, probably best to leave it and let the thread show the learning experience..

So can we answer Grants question in regards to this being Suzhou, or possible dating ?

The chalcedony example I posted is from the ( book ) Victoria and Albert Museum Collection. They do not say it is Suzhou school.  The only carved bottles they do attribute out of the entire collection to Suzhou school are a couple of white nephrite jade bottles.

Since materials like glass, and other hardstones were used by the Suzhou carvers, and because of the high quality carving of Grants bottle, it may be Suzhou carved.  Regardless if it is Suzhou or not, due to the high quality carving, it might be dated prior 1850 ?  I read there was a 20 year period after 1850 where there was a down turn in technical quality for Chinese crafts in general until post 1870, where the quality picked up again.

Short of what appears to be a "strong Chinese taste" ( pre 1850 ) on Grants bottle I do not know of anything else that could separate it from other high quality carvings from post 1870.

It is a beautiful bottle for sure though !

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear George,

    Hugh Moss MADE UP 'The Suzhou School', just as he made up 'The Master of the Rocks' school, and 'The Lingnan School'. He didn't make up the names; those were in each case, already invented by serious scholars to refer to other works and sometimes, in other time periods.

   "The Lingnan School" CORRECTLY refers ONLY to southern Chinese painting of what I call "Chinese Expressionism", primarily of the period 1890s-1950s, and the name was applied that way already in the 1890s; the style of the Early Period IPSBs, which HMM describes as 'Lingnan School' is clearly that of the Four Wangs of the 17th C. 

   "Master of the Rocks" CORRECTLY refers ONLY to Transitional Ware Blue & White Underglazed Porcelains with a landscape theme  (from the transition Between Ming and Qing, ca. 1620-1683); NOT to any style of carving on hardstone bottles.

     And I must apologise to you, since you were correct: the term Suzhou School refers properly ONLY to carving in jade. When I 'corrected' you a few posts earlier, I was 'channeling' Hugh Moss' (mis-) use of the term, Suzhou School! But we do have similar style of carving in chalcedony and I used to own one in carved glass, so I would agree to the term, " in the style of the Suzhou School ".

    Hugh Moss trolls the waters of  proper Chinese Art Scholarship, finds a term he likes, and then appropriates it to refer to and give a better market value (or 'brand') to a group of bottles he's amassed for sale. 

   He has a right to sell his wares for whatever he wants; he has a right to do research, and attribute any name to any object he wants, as long as it is correct according to recognised Chinese Art historical  rules, or if he is the first to coin the name. I'm bothered by Hugh's using already recognised scholarly terms to refer to items not meant by the scholars.  And my trusting Hugh Moss's info in the past has caused me embarrassment vis a vis genuine Chinese Arts scholars, so it upsets me.

  Best,
 Joey

Well, Yes.. A chalcedony title would be best, but the owner of the bottle was not aware it not quartz until we started commenting.. If I change the title, it would not be in sinque with his first post.. So for the sake of "keeping the flow" of the thread, probably best to leave it and let the thread show the learning experience..

So can we answer Grants question in regards to this being Suzhou, or possible dating ?

The chalcedony example I posted is from the ( book ) Victoria and Albert Museum Collection. They do not say it is Suzhou school.  The only carved bottles they do attribute out of the entire collection to Suzhou school are a couple of white nephrite jade bottles.

Since materials like glass, and other hardstones were used by the Suzhou carvers, and because of the high quality carving of Grants bottle, it may be Suzhou carved.  Regardless if it is Suzhou or not, due to the high quality carving, it might be dated prior 1850 ?  I read there was a 20 year period after 1850 where there was a down turn in technical quality for Chinese crafts in general until post 1870, where the quality picked up again.

Short of what appears to be a "strong Chinese taste" ( pre 1850 ) on Grants bottle I do not know of anything else that could separate it from other high quality carvings from post 1870.

It is a beautiful bottle for sure though !

[Bottleinpocket]

Thank you all for your comments, I guess this bottle was made of rock crytal rather than chalcedony, maybe I need upload more pics about this bottle. any way, thanx for your attention and ideas.

Grant

[Wattana]

Hi Grant,

Judging from the photos I would call your bottle rock crystal (quartz crystal), not chalcedony. It is not as transparent as the majority of examples, but I have seen many with a frosted appearance, like yours. Sometimes the 'frosting' is deliberate, as seen on quartz crystal bottles used by inside painting artists to allow the paints to adhere to the surface. Others have natural crypto-crystalline inclusions, giving the stone an overall hazy appearance.

Here is a detail from an amethyst (purple variety of quartz) snuff bottle which shares very similar characteristics to yours.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Grant,
    If it is Crystalline Quartz (Rock Crystal), the way it is lit in the photos is throwing most of us off. Because it REALLY looks like Chalcedony (Crypto-Crystalline Quartz). But I can see it as Rock Crystal if I imagine it as clear.
  Whatever actual material the bottle is, it looks like a very fine example.
Joey

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Yes, but Tom, yours looks much 'whiter' than Grant's which looks more beige coloured.
However, I can see his as Quartz as well, but blame the lighting for confusing us.  
Joey

[Wattana]

Joey,

My message beat yours by 10 seconds !!!

I agree that technically crypto-crystalline quartz is referred to as chalcedony (which is commonly pale beige or grey in tone). But there exists a borderline zone, where crypto-crystalline characteristics are present in a colourless stone. I think Grant's bottle falls into this category.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Tom you are right, but I don't know what I'm doing up at 04:47am! I'm 'punch-drunk' already!
Best,
 Joey

[Wattana]

Joey,
    Go back to sleep. You're gatecrashing my early morning posts!      

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Tom,
   I'd not yet gone to bed, at that point! I actually got to bed almost 40 min. later, and slept till almost noon, when I got up, showered and did my morning prayers (I'm sure it was morning somewhere on the globe at that point.  ).
  Now, back at my post. 
Best,
 Joey

Joey,
    Go back to sleep. You're gatecrashing my early morning posts!      

Tom