A bit different.

[seadancer1]

This seemed a bit different to the usual bird landscapes, and as it was only $20.00 AU, I decided to add it to the collection........for some reason the signature has faded.....can anyone tell me what the writing says please? Thank you in advance 
Cheers, Brenda

[OIB]

Brenda,

It is a 1987 ( 丁卯 year ) production from the ' One Bottle Studio ' ( 一壶斋 ) which is based in the Hebei province of China.

The subject title is ' Bald-headed Vulture ' ( 秃头鹰  )。 The bottle does not carry any signature of the artist.

By the way, which part of Australia are you from, Brenda ?

Inn Bok
Singapore

[OIB]

Brenda,

Sorry that I omitted to mention that the bottle was painted during an " Autumn month " ( 秋- autumn , 月- month ).

Happy collecting !

Inn Bok

[seadancer1]

Hi Inn, Thank you for your answer......it adds to my knowledge as I have to admit to knowing very little about the actual art of snuff bottles, so I go by what appeals to me
I live in an outer suburb of Sydney in NSW.
Cheers, Brenda

[Wattana]

Hi Inn Bok,

From my very limited knowledge of birds, the illustration looks like a bald-headed eagle.
I take it that the Chinese words for 'vulture' and 'eagle' are loosely inter-changeable.

Tom

[OIB]

Tom,

The Chinese character 鹰  is a generic word describing birds belonging to the family of
' Accipitridae ', Which I believe includes eagle, vulture, falcon .... Usually, another Chinese
character will precede the word 鹰  to tell us more precisely if it is vulture ( 兀 鹰 ) or
falcon ( 獵 鹰 = hunting eagle ).

Inn Bok

[wgeoff]

Hi Brenda and All

This is a Bald Eagle, Haliaeetus leucocephalus, the national bird of USA I believe.
It's range is restricted to north America, USA and Canada, but it can be seen right across this huge area from west to east and north to south.

Geoff

[wgeoff]

Hi Brenda and All

Just realised that this bottle is a copy of one by Wang Chunguang, number 180 and 180B on page 83 of "A New Look of Inside Painted Snuff Bottles"

Geoff

[George]

Posting for Brenda...

[Wattana]

Geoff,

Well spotted !

Tom

[seadancer1]

Does that mean then,that it is a fake and not painted by the original artist?

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  Brenda ,All

If  your  bottle  is  unsigned it  logically cannot  be a  "fake  and  therefore  not  painted  by the  original  artist"       -  unless  you  mean that  it  was  painted  very  recently  and  just  given  a  date  of  Autumn  1987

Wang Chunguang's bottle  is   dated  May  1987 (  and  very usually   the  date ,  artist and   title  is  written  in English)

Therefore,  most  likely  your  bottle  is   either  an  unsigned  repeat  paint  by  Wang  Chunguang ,  done  at  the  request  of  a  collector  ,  ir  just to  provide  some   quick  cash,   whoever   painted  it  was  copying from the  same  full size  painting (  or  perhaps  a  coffee- table  size  book  on birds)   that  Wang  Chunguang  used.

The  painting style   is   certainly  not    a  "Chinese "  theme ,  so  it  was  copied   from  a   western painting or  book.

Cheers
Peter

[wgeoff]

'A New Look' gives a reference for these paintings, 'after the style of famous Canadian painter Robert Bateman' so presumably Wang Chunguang copied two of his paintings.

The paintings are called 'Majesty on the Wing' and 'Vantage Point' so I guess if you look these up on a website of Robert Bateman's work, you will find the originals.

By the way, I think Peter means 'very UNusually written in English', of course the titles would normally be in Chinese calligraphy.

Geoff

[seadancer1]

So there is no real way of knowing if my bottle was painted by Wang Chunguang  ......I know this is a silly question guys, but as I cant read Chinese how do I know if a bottle has a signature or not?
Cheers, Brenda

[seadancer1]

I just had a look on google at Robert Batemans paintings..........beautiful!....many would make gorgeous ISP bottles.

[wgeoff]

Hi Brenda

I agree. For those who haven't seen, here are the original Robert Bateman paintings which Wang Chunguang must have seen and copied



Your bottle is clearly a copy of the Wang Chunguang bottle, not a copy of the original painting.

I'm not an expert but I don't think your bottle is painted by Wang Chunguang. The quality is not so good as the original and the calligraphy is different - I think your bottle uses some simplified Chinese characters where Wang Chunguang used the complex character. Maybe yours was painted by a student in 1989 or even later but with a 1989 date attached.

There is a standard Chinese character used by artists on inside-painted bottle which identifies the artist's name. I can't show it because I don't have a Chinese character computer system - maybe someone else can.   

Geoff

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  Brenda, Geoff  , (All)

1. It's  great  having  Geoff  on the  Forum to  identify   the  originals  of  these  "copy-an-original  "  paintings of birds !

2.  The  Chinese  calligraphy  on the  side  of a  bottle  may  include  any  or  even  all  of the   following

A)  brief  description  of the  painting ..e.g : " Mount  Huangshan  sunset"

B)  the   year  and  month/ season    when  painted. The  year  is  always   given  in a  kind  of  coded  version  based  on the   60-year  cyclical   calendar

C) the  name (or   pen name) of the  artist

D)  The  name  of the   art  studio = Chinese  "Zhai"   ( e.g  "One   Bottle Studio"  =  Yi  Hu  Zhai )

E)  a  red   "chop" (sometimes  also called  a  "seal" )   which  is  personal to the  artist .  But  the   chop-seal  is  very  hard to  read  clearly,  and   many  artists  use   many various  versions  of their  personal   chop-seal . Also the   chop-seal  is  trivial  to  copy .  So this  is the   least effective   guide to  authenticity

The   chinese   of  A, B, C , D   is    written  in free-hand  and  may be  in  either  traditional  or   simplified (= post 1949)  characters .  Anyway, the   chinese   characters  are  often very  hard to   read even for a  native  Chinese  person,  let  alone  for  a   westerner  who  knows  no Chinese

3.  It's  the  easiest  thing  in the  world  for  a junior artist  to  copy  another  bottle :  think -  if   a good artist  can  accurately  copy  an  original  painting  or  photograph   with  such  precision  that it's  almost impossible  to   tell that  it's  not   some  trick  whereby the  painting  has   some how  been photographically   transferred to the  inside  of the  bottle,  how  much  easier is  it to copy    a  photograph  of  an  original bottle ?    The   copiest  can  also  fake the  date  ( and even the   artist  name ) , although to  fake  the  Chinese  handwriting is  not  so easy, especially  if the  calligraphy is  very  good  or   distinctive. Sad  to  say this  does  often  happen.  Thus  "Provenance  is  King"

I've  not   checked  your   bottle   painting  vs  the  Wang Chunguang   original  or the  original Robert  Bateman   paintings,  but  I take  his   word  for  it, because  Geoff  has  a  very  sharp   eye

4.  Yes  (  Geoff)  I  meant  UNusually

5.  Conclusion :  your  bottle   could  have been  painted  by  literally  anyone  who had a  will to copy  the  original  Wang Chunguang   bottle,  and  literally  at  any time  post  1987 . Sorry to  say

6. Nonetheless  : it is  quite  common  for  several  artists  to  copy  the  same   western - or  Chinese  -  "canvas"   painting  with  differing degrees  of  skill  and  style   ( I  have  seen  this  many  times ) . So your  bottle  could  have been   by  a   student  of the  One  Bottle  Studio   who   tried to  emulate  Wang Chunguang's   work  using the  original  Robert Bateman   painting   as a  practice  bottle ( hence  unsigned)

Thus  the   artist  was  not   deliberately  faking   Wang Chunguang's   bottle :  he/ she   was  just  trying to  emulate  Wang's  work. 

To my mind  a  fake  is  only  a  proven  fake  if   the  copyist  has   tried  to  copy  an  original created  work  done  by  a    famous   artist  and  then  also faked the   date / name   etc

Many   antique  bottles   are   copy-faked  in this   way,  especially  Ma Shaoxuan's  works.

7. Also  note  that   some  top artists   paint  the   same   bottle several  times   with  minor  differences   each time (although  the  date   would  be  different  in each  case) .

This  is  also   true of  canvas  artists :    Munch  painted  6  versions  of "The  Scream"    and  I  believe there  are   actually  two  versions  of the  Mona  Lisa !
 
More  than  that  it's  hard to say  with  any  certainty about  your  bottle  unless you can   trace   when it  was  originally   sold

Hope  this  is  helpful

Cheers

Peter

[seadancer1]

Thanks guys, it all adds to my education. 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Brenda,
    It all adds to all of our educations. I learn new stuff every day on the Forum, and I've been collecting over 44 years!
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Thanks guys, it all adds to my education. 

[seadancer1]

Hi Joey
           I got close.......think I will keep this one! 
Cheers Brenda