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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 01:00:52 pm
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puffin
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« on: May 07, 2014, 04:03:36 am »

I am newly signed up, saying hello, and am hoping members will help me (an amateur) in identifying a small sang de boeuf bottle that I recently found in a mixed job lot at a local auction.

The images are on photobucket

http://s1259photobucket.com/us

Hope these are accessible and someone knows what this is and whether this is 20C or earlier.

Puffin
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puffin
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2014, 04:06:42 am »

..... apologies, I have not copied the link through properly and this should be

http://s1259.photobucket.com/us

Puffin
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puffin
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2014, 04:10:52 am »

The link is still not working so trying again:









Puffin
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Steven
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2014, 09:37:30 am »

Hi Puffin,

Welcome to the Forum!

It looks like a later 19th- early 20th Lang kiln red also "oxblood" or sang de boef in Fr snuff bottle to me.

For the bigger ware, the color normally lighter on top, deeper on the bottom, your bottle's color looks very even, it could because snuff bottle is small, and the gravity didn't do much on the glaze. Nice bottle.

Steven
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George
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2014, 09:52:33 am »

Welcome Puffin..



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puffin
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2014, 10:28:17 am »

Thanks for your response, affirming what I thought, an Ox Blood Colour, albeit a little dullish, and perhaps 19C.

I have not seen a seal/mark on the side like this before, nor do I understand the chinese characters and star in the hexagonal frame.

Also, does the label on the underside give any clues, again I do not know what the characters mean. Perhaps this is an old dealers label??

Puffin
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Steven
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 11:48:54 am »

Hi Puffin,

The seal is very common for the export chinese antiques during the later 19th-early 20th.it can be on bigger ware or small snuff bottle like this. its a wax seal, you can take it off if you want, but some collectors will keep it as it was.

The label on the bottom is like what you mentioned as a dealer label, it can be read" red glazed snuff bottle 1940" it could be dated 1940.

Steven
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 12:59:51 pm »

Dear Puffin,
welcome within us, I wish you a funny stay.
Your bottle is not sang the boeuf, or Langyao as more properly called by the Chinese. Langyao is a very vitreous, bright copper glaze applied on a crackled glaze, so you can see a clear net of crackles under it, something I don't see on your bottle. I would simply call the glaze of your bottle as "copper red glaze".
About the seal, it has any value under the collecting point of view because it simply means that the object is not older than 100 years (if I remember correctly) and thus is allowed to be exported. Practically it is a permission for export. Collectors of Chinese porcelain usually take off that seal because it is a sign that the item is not so old, although some people believe that it is a sign of authenticity, what indeed it isn't. I always take it off. If I were you, I would also take off the paper from the base, which is always good to keep visible and, if you are lucky, you can even find a mark under it.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2014, 03:27:17 pm »

Dear Puffin,
   Welcome from me as well.
   When I was in the PRC in Oct.1988, anything with that red wax seal was allowed to be exported as being later than the start of the Daoguang Emperor's reign (1821), but was also over 100 years old. In other words, made between 1821 and 1888. That was 26 years ago. I don't know if the dates are now 1847 and 1914, or what.
   I would remove both pieces as Giovanni suggested, and keep them as part of the documentation of that bottle. Unlike Giovanni, I WOULD call that 'Oxblood', but he is an expert in Chinese porcelain, and I'm not.  Cheesy
Best,
 Joey

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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 04:40:24 pm »

Thank you dear Joey.
Dear Puffin, I am posting here two details of Langyao glaze. The first one is from a vase of the Kangxi period, where this type of glaze was invented; the second one is from a vase of the 19th century. You can see that the glaze on your bottle is completely different.
Kind regards
Giovanni


* IMG_10.jpg (61.16 KB, 800x600 - viewed 46 times.)

* IMG_1.jpg (72.85 KB, 800x600 - viewed 39 times.)
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 09:32:36 pm »

Welcome to the forum Puffin.

As you have already seen, we enjoy discussing any bottle that gets posted here!  Cheesy
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Collecting since 1971

puffin
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2014, 04:02:12 am »

Wow......thanks for everyone's welcome and comments on my little bottle.
I thought I had some basic background knowledge but this is now being amplified by everyone who has kindly chipped in with their experise.

I am a little reluctant to remove the seal, as that is how the bottle has come to me.
When I first saw the '940' on the label on the base I wonderered if that was the price!!!in HK$ or similar, or perhaps a code number for his inventory, but am now a little more open  minded on that subject, and why would a vendor put the date 1940 on such a label?

On a recent visit to the Shanghai museum I saw many beautiful Chinese ceramic pieces, and in Hong Kong saw a few similar small but differently shaped bottles in the Hollywood Road shops, so when I found this somewhat unnoticed in a mixed auction lot locally in the UK I was very pleased to acquire it for virtually nothing.

Puffin
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Wattana
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 04:14:25 am »

Hi Puffin,

I wouldn't take too much notice of the '1940' label. It could be the year it was exported from China, the date on which the first dealer acquired it, or simply a code number unrelated to dates. As suggested, it may be a good idea to carefully remove it to see the base of the bottle properly, and keep it as part of your documentation for that bottle.

Some people remove the red wax 'export' seal, and others like to leave it in place, for reasons already noted. It's really your decision either way, and makes no difference to the bottle's value.

Tom
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2014, 07:26:27 am »

Dear Puffin,
the Shanghai museum is the place where my love for Chinese ceramics did born. I was literally shocked at my first visit there.
As for the labels, let me tell you my opinion.
The inspection of the base is probably the most important point for dating Chinese ceramics. In the case of your bottle, that is not possible. I would follow Joey' suggestion of keeping that paper label apart for your documentation if you wish.
The wax seal as already said is adding nothing to the piece, alas it is detracting for the majority of the collectors. Many ignorant sellers claims that the seal is a sort of authentication but as said that is not true. It just means that it is not so old.
In my opinion, by the pictures provided, your bottle is older than 1940. To be sure it is necessary to see the base and the foot, and they must be clean. Dirty has nothing to do with signs of age. I always carefully clean my pieces.
Of course it is up to you to do what you think better.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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puffin
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2014, 04:28:12 pm »

Giovanni

I have taken the label off the base, for safe keeping.

There are no markings on the base.

In the base there is a near circular pool of white glazed shiny material.  Around the rim of the base, and in a very narrow circle around the white glaze material there is no glaze.

I will post a photo of this later, (few days I am afraid), as cannot do the IT stuff for posting the image from my present location.

Thanks for your comments

Puffin
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