Photo Fake Inside Painted "Portrait" Snuff Bottles

[forestman]

Hi Giovanni,

The first images didn't show the whole bottles which was what I wanted to do. I had cropped a central area from each picture instead of resizing the whole picture but previewing the images before I uploaded them showed the whole image not the cropped image which is strange.

The second lot of pictures had been re sized and saved to file, just not the file I thought they were in so I uploaded from the file I thought they were in which clearly was in the original large pixel format.

I have given myself a severe telling off and grounded myself until Friday meaning I mustn't leave the house after 8 PM until then and promise to check image sizes before posting more pictures.

Regards, Adrian

[forestman]

Hi George and Joey,

I was under no illusions when I was actually bidding for 3 of the bottles that they were not genuine bottles by the artists that the signatures on the bottles suggested they were by but as the prices were low and they held some interest to me I bought them as much to be able to study them as anything else. All 6 that I bought will stay in my growing collection, certainly for the time being anyway, because they don't owe me much money wise and have varying appeal even if that appeal may be as examples of fakes.

The portrait bottle is perhaps the most disappointing bottle to me because it is an example of intended deception and yet the work involved in producing it and methods employed take some time and skill. The people who made it hoped to be rewarded with a price paid that was higher than the work and skill justified which is when it matters but as I paid little for it expecting it to be fake then the deception matters less. It does however point to worrying developments in the use of some photographic method of deception as highlighted in the other thread.

The Horse and Buffalo bottles disappoint in a different way, I am disappointed for the artists that painted them because they deserved a better bottle and I intend to keep polishing them until the outside of the glass is clear which it still isn't. You see cheap tourist fodder on offer on ebay in better bottles with very basic painting inside up at prices that are not justified.

The point of my initial post was to give another example of a photo faked bottle and I will zoom in with a macro lens to look closely at it in detail. As suggested by George, there is painting added to eyebrows for example to "add" to the deception and looking inside the bottle with a loupe shows those black lines clearly. In normal IP the detail of black lines is added first and if a flesh tone was painted for the face it would lightly cover the detail line and dull the intensity of the black detail which isn't the case in these bottles.

Regards, Adrian.

[George]

Funny thing... I just intentionally bought one as well to study..  It is only an inch tall and I think a photo technique was used to create the dark outlines and then blotted the paint in after.  I have not used the microscope on it yet..  Will share it later ..

[forestman]

Hi George,

As my smallest bottle is a nice little malachite one at 1.5 inches that is dwarfed by all the others I'm interested to see what an inch high one is like, let alone one that has had some photo technique used on it.

I had wondered if my MSH horse bottle had some photo technique used for the calligraphy as per the portrait bottle as it looked very well rendered but I can confirm it's very much real as I have smudged a small bit of one character with a cotton bud which now has ink/paint on the end of it.

Now I've confirmed it's all properly painted and it's looking better as I have polished the glass more so the painting is properly revealed I'm starting to become somewhat fond of my MSH fake and as I said before, what an incredible shame that someone who has a clear talent resorted to painting in a cheap opaque bottle which was made worse by the snuff/fake snuff that was covering the inside. I suspect a student at some IP school who wanted to make a bit of money in his spare time but could only afford a cheap bottle to paint in.

I've seen at auction over here older IP bottles that have been described as painted in a given year but in a bottle that was older than the painting. Makes you wonder what is possible in terms of faking if older bottles with bad watercolour inside paintings are cleaned and a talented forger let loose on them.

Regards, Adrian.

[George]

Hi George,

As my smallest bottle is a nice little malachite one at 1.5 inches that is dwarfed by all the others I'm interested to see what an inch high one is like, let alone one that has had some photo technique used on it.

That was one reason I bought it.. To have a look and see if they could really do a technique in this small a bottle..  I will get the scope out a little later...  But spending a little time first with a new bottle that arrived today ..

Here is the one inch bottle..

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Adrian,

     I must correct my prior, tongue in cheek comment. The bottles signed Ding Erzhong and Ma Shaoxuan are fake; I was only looking at those, I must admit.
The obviously modern bottles might well be genuine (painted by the person who signed the bottle) and quite good.

    I am travelling (I just arrived in Taipei, Taiwan), so I have been trying to limit my time on the Forum, so i can meet people 'live' and see things live. 
Best,
Joey

[George]

Indeed they did photo process the dark outlines. There are no brush strokes at all.. It also appears the same on the calligraphy side. I think it was photo processed as well. It looks like the seal was actually painted, and appears to have been painted in prior to the photo process.

Seems pretty amazing for such a small surface, even for a photo process .. Although maybe it is not any more complicated than a larger bottle.

[OIB]

Dear George,
I have not followed the Forum for the
last few weeks when I was in Perth. Just returned
home yesterday and read about this post of yours.
Could you send the picture of the one-inch bottle
( original format ) to my email ? Please ensure all
the Chinese characters are included.
From the picture you posted on the Forum, it might
appear to be a hand painted bottle, but of inferior
quality. It was faking Ma's work. The artist's
calligraphy said that it was presented to Mr Mei
Nan Fang, master of Peking Opera.
Regards,
Inn Bok

[George]

Dear George,
I have not followed the Forum for the
last few weeks when I was in Perth. Just returned
home yesterday and read about this post of yours.
Could you send the picture of the one-inch bottle
( original format ) to my email ? Please ensure all
the Chinese characters are included.
From the picture you posted on the Forum, it might
appear to be a hand painted bottle, but of inferior
quality. It was faking Ma's work. The artist's
calligraphy said that it was presented to Mr Mei
Nan Fang, master of Peking Opera.
Regards,
Inn Bok

Welcome back Inn Bok !

I have given this to my new born Granddaughter.  Also have since removed the pics from my computer.

Next time I am in the city to visit, I will take some pictures and send to your email..

[OIB]

George,
I forgot to add that the lesser artist dated it
( on the calligraphy face ) as Republic 15th
year, which was 1926 !
When I get to my computer, I will upload two
miniature IP bottles for sharing.

Inn Bok

[vdawg4]

Great information and well done! I had no idea. I am fortunate not to have bought one.

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi George

Is it  possible  (and sensible) to  merge  this  thread  into  the   very  much  bigger  Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles   thread ?

The  reason I ask  is that    I just  tried  to  find the  Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles   thread  using the  search   bar,  and  I could  not  find  it ,  until  after  a  lot of  work,    because  the  key  words  like  "fake"  and  "Photo"  go  directly   to the  Photo Fake Inside Painted "Portrait" Snuff Bottles thread

Cheers

Peter

[George]

Hi George

Is it  possible  (and sensible) to  merge  this  thread  into  the   very  much  bigger  Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles   thread ?

I have not been able to merge topics for some time.  I can not explain why it will not work any longer..