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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 11:25:38 am
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Gui XiangGu or Ma Shaoxuan

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Author Topic: Gui XiangGu or Ma Shaoxuan  (Read 3627 times)
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Steven
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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2020, 09:48:56 pm »

I am with Tom B on the comments regarding the bottle.

-Brian,   Congratulations on another wonderful bottle!

Cheers!

Steven
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2020, 09:52:25 pm »

Tom,

Thanks so much for that info. I did not know that about 1915. Definitely good to know. Does that mean that it was perhaps painted by one of his sons instead? Or just that that is how we refer to the bottles?

Brian
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Brian – A third generation collector in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Steven
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« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2020, 10:09:48 pm »

Dear Brian,

Here is a reference of the timeline of Ye family productions.

As Tom pointed out that after 1915, his son started to paint with the elder, altho Ye elder was still painting after 1915,  there was a chance it was painted by the son.

Best,

Steven


* timeline.jpg (239.15 KB, 1173x753 - viewed 53 times.)
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« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2020, 12:34:05 am »

Hi Steven,

That's an amazing analysis! Who produced this graph?

Best,
Tom (L)
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« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2020, 09:18:21 am »

Dear Tom L.,

     It's from Hugh Moss' 'book' [serialised in the Journal], "The Apricot Grove Studio".
Best,
joey
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Tom B.
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« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2020, 04:49:19 pm »

Dear Brian and all,

As you can see from the excellent graph supplied by Steven, there is a period of a few years circa 1913-1915 where Ye Zhongsan's eldest son was just starting to work with his father.  Bottles from those years sometimes show signs of a less experienced artist and can then be attributed to Ye Bengzhen.  Obviously the masterpieces with dates of 1913 or 1914 are usually described as "probably Ye Zhongsan the Elder".  The problems of attribution on later dated bottles have to do with all three of his sons becoming masters too and then signing with the father's signature.

Best regards,

Tom B.

P.S. Thank you Steven for the handy reference graph
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2020, 06:08:10 pm »

Tom,

Fascinating stuff. Thanks again!

Brian
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« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2020, 08:55:28 pm »

Dear Tom L.,

     It's from Hugh Moss' 'book' [serialised in the Journal], "The Apricot Grove Studio".
Best,
joey

Thanks Joey for answering the question for me.Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2020, 09:23:36 pm »

Dear Joey,

Thanks for the heads up.

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2020, 04:43:01 pm »

My pleasure, Steven and Tom L.

Tom B., I have looked at my 20 Ye Family bottles. I have a mediocre bottle with human figures in a garden by Ye Bengzhen from 1914.
And a superb example by him of a similar subject dated 1918.
But I also have two superb bottles with the 'Fish Swimming' subject. One is from 1914 and the second from 1918.
So at least in that subject he was as good as his father that early. In fact, I bought it from the Philip Brachman collection, and in the catalogue,
it was originally listed in the catalogue as Ye Zhongsan the elder.
Clare Chu told me it was Ye Bengzhen before she bid on my behalf, and it was announced at the sale, which dropped the price.
I had no problem with it being his work.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2020, 02:11:38 pm »

Dear Joey and all,

Thank you for explaining the attribution problems of the early years of the Ye Family's production.  By using actual examples it helps clarify the situation.

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2020, 11:36:22 am »

Dear Tom B.,

       Mr. Yang of blessed memory once told me that he understood that in the early years [1912 - 1920],
Ye Zhongsan the elder would sign his sons' bottles. So they would paint and he would enscribe.

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2020, 12:18:45 pm »

Dear Joey,

That makes it even harder, but does not surprise me.  Peter Paul Rubens did the same thing after adding a brushstroke or two to give them a master's touch.  Smiley

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2020, 10:37:30 pm »

My thought is, if the signature looks like The Elder's, but the painting is not up to his quality level, it is by Bengzhen between 1912 and whenever, Xiaofeng started, etc.
And Bengzhen died very young, in 1929.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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