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Photo Fake Inside Painted "Portrait" Snuff Bottles

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Author Topic: Photo Fake Inside Painted "Portrait" Snuff Bottles  (Read 2349 times)
George
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« on: March 16, 2014, 10:42:17 pm »

I see folks spending good money on these fake portrait bottles all the time.. I can understand how someone could easily have stumbled upon, for example a legitimate Ma Shaoxuan portrait bottle with prices in the thousands, left believing  they are getting great deals on the many fake portrait bottles being offered. It can be easy to be deceived by these bottles at a distance.   

I think most who are on the forum or have been collecting for a while know the difference.

These comparisons will hopefully help the new unsuspecting collector see the difference..

We have talked about fake photo enhanced and photo outlined images being superimposed to the interior before.. The same superimposed images are used on these.. Then someone simply applies a few brush strokes of black paint to the highlight the eyes, eye brows, beards, lips, hair, etc, in an effort to enhance the already faded and out of focus enhanced image.

For the most part these fake bottles are all the same shape and size, which in itself draws a red flag as these bottles are new, not Early or Middle Period glass bottles. 



Compared to a legitimate Middle Period glass bottle...



Look closely at this portrait. Overall, the image is faded, and the photo used, after applied to the interior is out of focus as a result of the process used to apply it.  You can see how brush strokes of black paint are stroked into the eyes, eye brows, nostrils, hair, beard, lips etc..



Now compare to a painted portrait.. It is easy to see how crisp and well defined as a result of being 100% painted..



Hope this helps !
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 09:02:57 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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misfit38
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 01:15:43 am »

Thank you for sharing, as a novice myself, it is easy to be fooled, but I have learnt something today that may aid in spotting a fake.

Kaz
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Fiveroosters
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 03:05:15 am »

Dear George,
thank you very much for this excellent lesson!!
Giovanni
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Jungle Jas
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 08:12:19 am »

Yes, nice one George. Very helpful in knowing what to look for. You should never buy a bottle without some form of magnification. One of the worst bottles I ever bought was in the dark at 6oc in the morning. Roll Eyes You live and learn. Grin
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Joey
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 11:07:03 am »

Dear George,
   Well done. I didn't notice this thread before.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 05:12:07 pm »

Dear George,

Since the last Time I visited this post I have been on eBay  and have seen a number of photo printed  bottles, This is undoubtedly the most useful lesson learnt in the last few years. Thank you so much.  Wink Jason.
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Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 08:44:12 pm »

Hi  George

Can  you please  merge  this  thread   with the  main thread on  photo-faked  bottles   which  goes  back a  long way  (  2  years  + ) ?

Cheers

Peter
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George
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 09:02:29 pm »

I thought about that when I first started this separate topic Peter..

But, since it is a little different, in that it is related to a particular type of portrait bottles, plus I have linked to it from within other sites, I sort of have to leave it separate from the other topic.

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Wattana
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2014, 02:35:48 am »

Great post George!
I must admit, I hadn't read it before you hi-lighted it for our newcomer Charles this weekend.

Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2014, 04:09:30 am »

George,

thanks for the update. Like Joey, I must have also missed the March 2014 post.

Inn Bok
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David
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2014, 06:32:50 pm »

Hi George,

I think I saw one of the fake on Rubylane once, was that the one someone paid 1400 for?

Thank you for the info here, I was actually lamenting that it might be real even if the calligraphy looks odd. This post basically saved me 1500! I was planning to buy one if I ever see it by his nephew.

Big thank you!

David
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Joey
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2014, 06:56:32 pm »

Dear David,
      I can 'save'  you  US$ 1500, too!  Grin
Ma Shaoxian never did portrait bottles!  Wink
Best,
Joey




Hi George,

I think I saw one of the fake on Rubylane once, was that the one someone paid 1400 for?

Thank you for the info here, I was actually lamenting that it might be real even if the calligraphy looks odd. This post basically saved me 1500! I was planning to buy one if I ever see it by his nephew.

Big thank you!

David

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2014, 07:41:06 pm »

Dear Joey,

That's a nice piece of info. But I have yet to see Ma ShaoXian's work in his prime.

Cheers,
YT
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David
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2014, 08:50:44 pm »

Hi Joey,

I will keep that in mind.

Will he always sign his piece? I know some old artist have multiple names or "nickname" that they use. Does he sign in different names?

Do you know roughly how many of his bottles are know?

Thanks,
David
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David

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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2016, 12:40:42 pm »

Although this and the other thread on photo faked bottles have had nothing added fro a while I thought I would add my experiences.

I recently bought 6 bottles, unseen, from an auction via online bidding. It was a regional auction house I hadn't come across before with a high number of lots to get through in the day. Hardly anything had a guide price as there was a lot of tat mixed in with some better stuff of which a fair amount was Chinese. There were around 12 bottles, only 3 had estimates, 2 of which I bought, the table bottle with cover and the agate bottle with carved inclusions which was wrongly described as Peking glass and I bought at low estimate at low prices. The third bottle with an estimate was the star lot by some margin, an ornate bottle from the Imperial kilns with good provenance 20,000-30,000 which sold at low estimate.

There were also some IP bottles with no estimate of which I bought 4 for not much. 2 bore signatures of Ma Shao Hsuan, one the portrait bottle and the other the horse bottle. Having just got the "Collectors Book of Snuff Bottles" I saw the portrait bottle and thought it looked like those by MSH in the book, checked the signature and thought "Hello early retirement" especially when the horse bottle had a MSH signature as well. They did not claim anything and were simply described as IP portrait bottle with calligraphy on reverse, IP bottle of horse with calligraphy on reverse etc.

What made me wonder was the one expensive bottle, the apparently carved cinnibar stopper on the portrait bottle an the mis-described Peking/agate bottle, were they all from the same deceased estate and only the ornate bottle was considered to have value. The horse bottle and man on buffalo bottle looked somewhat hazy in the pictures, especially the buffalo one which I wasn't going to buy as it looked wrong. In the end I bought all 4 as the prices were low which told me alot as bidding started.

Before collecting them I was suspicious enough to search for faked MSH bottles which lead me to this forum.

On collection the portrait bottle was immediately too light but looked okay under a loupe. All 4 bottles had traces of snuff/curry powder/ground seasoning cubes in them. All bottles except the "man with geese" looked somewhat fuzzy which wasn't helped by the snuff.

The "Man with geese" seems to be signed by Chang Wen-t'ang who painted in the modern period which could be right.

The other 3 looked a bit fuzzy as the bottles were not polished on the outside, especially the horse and the buffalo ones so cheap bottles. The worst looking one was the buffalo one which had ridges on the sides where the bottle was off poor quality.

All bottles were turned upside down and the snuff cleaned out with cotton buds which made them look better. Using a loupe I still couldn't really see any dotting or pixels in the portrait bottle and the horse and buffalo bottles seemed to be real IP bottles.

I didn't want to take the route the "Pretty Lady" suffered in the other thread and went the other way. I took out my multi tool, attached a polishing wheel, applied some cutting compound and polished the horse and buffalo bottles and since I bought them they have been somewhat transformed by cotton bud and polishing, shame I didn't take before and after pictures.

The latest I have learned is the date on the portrait bottle is wu-chen so 1988, 1928 or 1868, my guess is whoever did the bottle correctly dated it ie 1988. There is a similar bottle available with a different portrait but dated the same and with the same calligraphy beside the portrait which, I assume, identifies the person although they are very different people.  The horse bottle is dated i-mao so 1975, 1915 or 1855 so again may have been correctly dated to 1975. I haven't looked into the signature or date of the buffalo bottle yet.

So fake bottles with a possibly correct date for when they were done and seemingly proper IP done on the horse and buffalo bottles. The plot thickens.

Sorry for the long post.

KInd regards,

Adrian.

 


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forestman
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« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2016, 01:01:11 pm »

Just returned to check if my re sizing of the pictures worked and clearly it didn't so I will have another go which should make things clearer.

Regards, Adrian
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forestman
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« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2016, 01:11:44 pm »

Second attempt, fingers crossed.


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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2016, 02:16:22 pm »

Dear Adrian, this last try is worst, too big pictures, the previous one was perfect I think. Why do you think that it was not good? The best size is about 800 -900 pixels maximum.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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George
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« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2016, 04:10:27 pm »

In a short answer... All of the above are falsely signed, fake, and or modern..  It is almost hard to believe there would be any bottles of any significance within the entire auction. I am going to take a leap of faith without looking at the Imperial piece with good provenance is not far off from the other bottles you shared..

I am really glad you found the information via the forum regarding the faked IP's.. Hopefully that information will save you a few dollars in the future ..

Wish I could be even a little optimistic about the bottles shown, but at least you are taking the time to compare and learn... !
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Joey
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« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2016, 07:46:26 pm »

Dear Adrian,

     Personally I liked the FAKE Ding Erzhong almost as much as the FAKE Ma Shaoxuans!  Grin Roll Eyes
Basically, all the bottles in the post are fake.
Best
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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