Four Landscapes

[wgeoff]

At last my renovation is complete and I can access my collection in storage. I find I have about 100 bottles (including some sets), some good, some bad and some ugly. But my appreciation of my collection has improved immeasurably since joining this website and seeing Peter's collection and his database.

My first showing here is four bottles under the title 'Landscapes'. I like traditional Chinese artworks like these.
The first bottle is unusual because I know where I bought it and how much I paid. I bought this bottle from a small outdoor stall in one of Hong Kong's flea markets, Cat Street next to Hollywood Road. I used to visit the area regularly looking for interesting artwork, most of the inside-painted bottles were junk but I happened upon this one. It took four visits and some negotiation to get it for HK$800 but I was very pleased (and still am)

 

The second bottle is one of my favourites, as usual can't remember when and where I bought it but it must have been between 1993 and 2003

 

Even I can read the name on the next one. It's by Wang Baichuan, if not a copy, but the artistry is very good.

 

I suppose it should be one of my favourites but I prefer the first two bottles for their atmosphere.

The final bottle is one of the last I purchased. I just liked the stories contained within, particularly the two men in the rice paddy at the front, obviously gossiping about the latest village news.

 

This one was the most difficult to photograph because the bottle is almost round. The photo does not do it justice.

Hope you like them like I do.

Geoff

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  Geoff,

That's a  very  interesting  set  of  landscapes.  Many thanks  for posting them.

That one  by Wang Baichuan  is  particularly good.  Check  him out  in by  DB.  He's  a  1st generation WXS  student  and  now  is  Master  status.  His  bottles  - if they  are  even  for sale  at all  -  go  for  several  tens  of  thousands  of HK$ (I  think I recall  seeing  one of his  bottles  recently  priced  at  HK$70,000 )

It's also  interesting to see    how   landscape  painting  has  evolved.  In the   80's  and  90's  the   artists  were  still  copying  Chinese  traditional  landscape   styles.  It  was  only in the   2000's  that  they  started to  innovate  and  use  more  colors.

STEVEN :  can you  read the  artist's   names  on the  other  3  bottles ?

Cheers, Peter

[George]

It's also  interesting to see    how   landscape  painting  has  evolved.  In the   80's  and  90's  the   artists  were  still  copying  Chinese  traditional  landscape   styles.  It  was  only in the   2000's  that  they  started to  innovate  and  use  more  colors.

This is what I find most interesting and special about your landscape bottles Geoff...  Recently I found interesting reading about the fundamental of ancient Chinese artist and how those fundamentals were applied to our IP's...  More so noticable within Middle Period bottles...

I brought this up to a collector off forum and felt he was a little upset that I commented how many Very Modern ( VM ) aritst seem to not be applying traditional fundamentals to their works..  He, replied that they have not lost the ability to acknowledge and apply these fundamentals, but are evolving into their own unique styles..  I personally feel it is a shame..

I see so many VM bottles where the artists seem to be evolving into new techniques that for example, turns a meant to be landscape theme into a boat, fisherman, scholar, village, buildings, etc, etc, themes..

Any way, just nice to see your four beautiful landscape bottles where it is easy to see ancient Chinese fundamentals applied.. WIth the exception of the last bottle where the boat is so large that it distracts from what is meant to be a river/landscape theme..

I also like the Wang Baichuan paintings the best..

 

[rpfstoneman]

Geoff,

Thanks for sharing these bottles. I too prefer the more traditional landscape scenes, and the top two bottles are per my taste.  But all are great looking bottles.

Charll

[misfit38]

Thank you for sharing your landscape bottles, I do like landscape scenes and these are lovely, like you, I like the first two also.

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Very  interesting discussion indeed....

As  you  all  know,  most  of  my  collection  is   VMIPB Chinese  landscapes, almost all  painted  in the  past   10 years  or  so . 

 I fell in love  with  Chinese  landscape   paintings, especially the  more   abstract / modern  style ,  when  I  first  started   going to  BJ  in the  mid  1980's. I bought  several black and white "Huang Shan"  style  paintings  by a  quite  famous  artist   called Guo Chuan Zhang who  was   the   father  of this particular   School (  he   died  about  20 years   ago) -see  attached  pic . But in  a  small  HK  flat one  can only  hang  a  very  few  paintings so  I stopped   buying.

When  I  "discovered" IPBs  I  was  delighted to   find that  I  could   keep   collecting   Chinese  landscape  paintings  -  because  they  were  in miniature  ( and  I   adore  miniatures ever  since  my  matchbox  collecting     childhood  days)

So  I  focused   almost  exclusively  on  collecting Chinese  landscapes   and  it  was  only  when  I   found  Bill Patrick's  website    that  I   realized that there   are  in fact  many other   styles  of   IPBs  (  portraits,  animals,  etc)  In fact  the    thing that  surprised  me  most   about  Bill's  website  is  that  there  is  NO  section  devoted to  Chinese  landscapes !   And  since  then  I've  found   very  few  collectors  who share  my passion  for  Chinese  landscape  MIPBs .   Geoff  seems  to   be  about the  first   collector   with whom I  have  this  passion  in  common.

George   says that  he  feels  VMIPB  artists   have  drifted  away  from  the   traditional   Chinese landscape   styles.   In a  sense that is  true  but I think the   word  "drift"  is  the  wrong  term, because   the top   VMIPB  artists  have  consciously  developed new  styles of their   own  based  on  classical Chinese   landscapes.  They  didn't    drift  away  aimlessly.  They   drove  away  consciously  and   determinedly

To be   frank  - once  one has seen  one  classical  Chinese   landscape  painting one has   seen  them  all.
OK that's a huge   exaggeration,  but  I think you  get my meaning.  It  is  VERY   stylized and  nearly  all of them  are  variations  on a  theme.   It's  a  bit  like  listening  endlessly  to  Handel  or  Bach.  It gets  boring  after a  while

Looking   through  my data  base  I can see clearly  that  up until   the mid    1990's    VMIPB  Chinese  landscapes  were  almost  exclusively   based  on the  classical  style.  But then  in the  late  1990's   along  came  a   small  handful  of  Beethovens    and Verdi's!   Artists  like   Liu  Yizi,  and  more  important : Wang  Guanyu , who   dared to break  the  mold   and  develop   entirely new   styles. 

I can listen to  Beethoven  and  Verdi  forever  and  never  get bored . In   fact   the more  I listen to their   works  the more  I love  them (ever  heard the  Verdi  Requiem , or  Beethoven's  Fidelio ? )

If  you look  at  Wang Guanyu's  early   work (  e.g.  in J.H. Leung's  'New Look') you will that  it was  also very  stylized. But   then  in the  late  1990's  he   branched  out  in his  later  life.  The  same is  true  of  Fu Guoshun - his early  work  as  in "New Look" was   also  very stylized  and  - frankly  speaking  - boring.  But  then   in  late  life   he   also  had a  renaissance,   since when  he  has  been  painting  some  totally  amazing   new   styles, which I have been  ardently  collecting . I have  invested a  small   fortune  in  his   works.   

These   older  artists    are   certainly very well- schooled  in  classical  Chinese  painting.  In fact many  of them actually started  as   normal  artists  painting  on paper, and then  gravitated  to   IPBs.

The   younger   artists -  like  Yuan Shijia - went  straight  into   VMIPBs.   But they too  pay  great  attention to   traditional   Chinese   landscape   art.   Their  homes  are  packed   with books  on Chinese  art.  I   saw  at least  100    art  books  on the  shelves  of  Hu Xiaoran in his   study, and  I   often  saw  books  open  on his  desk  when I visited  him, because  he  was   looking at them  for  inspiration  and guidance.

Da Yong, who is  one  of the  most  influential   artists  in  Hengshui  -  particularly  influential  among the  younger   artists -  has  huge piles of  art  books    all over  his    huge   5,000  sq  ft   apartment.  And  his  work study  floor  was   carpeted  by  art  books  ( see  pics) 

Last  time  I was  in Hengshui  I learned that  several of the   best  young  artists  are  going to a  traditional    Chinese  art  school ( in Qingdao ?  )   for one week / month at their  own  expense   to  really  learn  traditional   Chinese  art  styles.

So IMHO ( in my humble  opinion) , what  I see  has  happened  in the  past  decade  is  probably  the most  exciting   developments   ever  in  VMIPB   Chinese  landscape  painting.   What is  being  painted  now benefits  not  only  from a  firm  grounding  in  traditional   styles,  but  is also  enhanced  by   superb  new  painting   skills (high  detail,  new  brush  strokes ,  new  colors, new   everything skills...)  PLUS  a  genuine   desire to  create  real   art  inside  bottles,   instead of   just  monotonously  copying   old traditional   styles   over  and  over  again.

A  couple  of years  ago   Yuan Shijia  asked me  to help  polish  an  English  translation  of  something Wang Guanyu  wrote  about  him.  It was  an incredibly  difficult  job - far  beyond my  basic Mandarin level  - because   WGY  wrote  in a  very  literary   style, so  finally  I had to  ask  Steven  for   help.   I think the   final  version    is a  pretty  good   translation and  captures the   real meaning  of  WGY's  original   Chinese.  I attach the    word-doc.  Please  do read  it because  it  has a  lot of  bearing  on this   discussion thread.

Cheers
Peter

[Steven]

Hi Geoff,

Thank you for sharing 4 beautiful bottles!

The first one" Painted in 1985 by Lao Tie老铁" . Lao Tie should be a art name.

The second one"Painted in 1994 by Xiao Yun 晓云" Xiao Yun should be a artname as well.

You already figured out the 3rd one by Wang Baichuan, I like it the best, since the painting is very balanced, and leave enough space for breathing, I like the second one as well, but the painted is too full, so no much space for breathing.

I can't figure out the 4th one since the script is written a little careless.

Steven

[rpfstoneman]

Peter,

Based on the above post it looks like you are beginning to develop the basis of pretty good draft for your presentation at this year's ICSBS convention.  Many of the collector presentations that I have had to opportunity to sit in on at the conventions are not great literary works or massively technical research presentations warrant of publication, but are simply the collectors discussing their passion for what they collect.  They are providing personal experiences and practical insight to the area they collect and/or on the topic on which the collection is based.  In my opinion, these presentations are often the best because they are the collector relaying their passion and interests to fellow collectors.
 
With exception to your over simplification statement (and that is even OK because I get your point) on traditional Chinese landscapes which I do appreciate immensely, I am very interested in the 'compare and contrast' of the more traditional designs to that of the developing contemporary ones.

Charll
             

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Geoff,
    I like all four landscape bottles. I like the 'breathing space' Steven referred to on the Wang, but still like the other three as well. I look forward to meeting you at the convention in Hong Kong in Oct.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi Charll

Thanks for  your  message, an  I agree   with  you.

Although  my general  theme  with  be "VMIPBs"  and  I will  explain the   4 ( now  5)  Schools as  Berthe  requested (although  it  beats  me  that  this  is  not   general  knowledge  already  within the   ICSBS  -  it's   pretty much  ABC  stuff)   my real  theme   will be  the   evolution  of   VMIPB painting in the  past 30  years  as  regards

a)   painting  skills  -  using cats  as an  example

b)  types of  bottles   -  using   just about  everything  as  an  example ( natural   crystal  with  inclusions)

c)  genuine   creative   art  - using  landscapes

Interestingly,  I spoke to  Yuan Shijia  yesterday   following  my  long  posting   and  directed  him to  Mike to  understand  how to   get into the  Forum and   read  it in Chinese .  Also to see the  fact  that I  posted  his recent   bottles  as a  free  promotion  for  him.

He  replied  by  private  email saying that  he  agrees  completely  with  what  I  wrote.   

So I  think I got  it  basically   right.

If  you  have  not  read the    attached   word.doc  I posted   which was the  English  translation  of  Wang Guanyu's  introduction  about  Yuan Shijia, then  I do  urge  you to do  so.

I  learned  so much   while   working  on that  translation  Every   single  sentence  has   immense  meaning ,  having been  written  by  one  of  the  top  artists  in Hengshui  about  one  of the potentially  greatest  upcoming  young  artists

Thanks  again  for   your  comments

Cheers
Peter

[George]

If  you  have  not  read the    attached   word.doc  I posted   which was the  English  translation  of  Wang Guanyu's  introduction  about  Yuan Shijia, then  I do  urge  you to do  so.

I  learned  so much   while   working  on that  translation  Every   single  sentence  has   immense  meaning ,  having been  written  by  one  of  the  top  artists  in Hengshui  about  one  of the potentially  greatest  upcoming  young  artists

So much so that I wanted to create a separate topic just for the purpose of easy referencing the document

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1960.0.html

[wgeoff]

Thanks for all your comments on my Landscape bottles. I guess I'm a little different to Peter in that I'm very traditional and don't go so much for the new styles.

Steven, any date on the Wang Baichuan bottle? I'm waiting for my copy of Leung's book which I seem to remember showed you how to read bottle dates (I used to have a copy which got lost in my many moves).
Is there any way to identify the real name of those using pen names?

And I also look forward to meeting you all later this year in Hong Kong.

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  Geoff

1. You will  find  several   guides  to the Chinese    60 - year   cyclical  calendar  at the  beginning  of  the  DB

   However,  even  with this  at hand it's   very  difficult   for anyone   except a native  Chinese  person to  read
    the  characters unless they are  written  very  clearly  on  the  bottle

2.  Which  Leung  book  are  you  referring  to ?  Do you mean  J. H. Leung's  " A New Look  of  Inside  Painted   Snuff Bottles" ?  If  so it's  a  real  treasure and    very  hard to buy  except through  2nd hand book  web sites.  Going prices  is  about  US$200.

There's   two  versions  : English and  Chinese.  The   English  version came out    later  and has a  few  extra  pages  more than the  Chinese  version.

I  think  I  included a  scan of the  English  version  on the  USB stick which  I sent  you, but  anyway   my complete  scans  of both Chinese and  English versions  are   encoded  in  the   DB   by artist ( all those  with  code "L")

3. There's  no possible  way to identify the   real artist   from the  pen name  unless  at some point of time in some    book or  catalog    the    real name  is   given  alongside  the   pen name(s) -  or you happen to know  someone   who knows the   artist .

Wherever  possible  I have  linked  pen names to  real names  in the  DB  using  the  @ symbol.

As I mentioned  before, I  have  one reference to  a  Xiao Yun  in my  DB  ( but  without the   chinese  characters,  so  I can't say   unequivocally  it's the  same   Xiao  Yun as  yours).  But I don't know   who  the  real  artist  is.
Lao  Tie is  right off  the radar  screen  - no  other  reference to  this artist

4. Are  you  planning to  join  the  ICSBS ? It  would  be  well worthwhile to  do so - at least  for  this  year  -  so you can   join  the  convention  in  HK  and  Xian.  I'm pretty sure  that   having the  convention  in   HK and  China  is a  once-in-decade  thing.  And the  Xian  leg   will be  particularly   exciting  because  it's   apparently  being  sponsored  by  the  Xian  city   govt and  the  new  Qin School  in  Xian ( Zhang  Tieshan's  school ).

I  have never  been to a  convention  before  because  they were  all in  USA .  But  my guess  is that  you  would not be   admitted to  any of the  meetings  and  scheduled   visits  in HK   unless you  are a  bona fide member  of the  ICSBS.

Cheers
Peter

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Peter,
     Not all conventions were in the USA:
 in London: in  1974, 1987, 1999
in Hong Kong: 1978, 1990, 1996 (and Beijing), 2005 (and Beijing)
In Singapore: 2002
In Paris: in 1995
In Dublin: 2009
10 conventions not in the USA. That is 25%.
Best, 
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

[George]

Even I can read the name on the next one. It's by Wang Baichuan, if not a copy, but the artistry is very good.

 

Geoff..

When you have time, could you please re-post and add these same pics, but much larger ? 

I would like to use this bottle for another topic I am working on.. 

[wgeoff]

Thanks Peter. I am now a member of ICBS.

George, I'll send you larger photos by email.

Geoff

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi Geoff

Great !  One  of  of the   side- objectives  of the   Forum is  indeed to encourage  Forum  members  to  join the  ICSBS ( hence the  link to  the  ICSBS in the    side-bar)

So will  you  join the   full    2014  convention    HK / Xian  + the    follow-on  tourist  trip  in BJ   during   which  we  will  have  special  invitation access to  some  rare art-related  places  that  normal  tourists  never   can see ?

And    after that...   Hengshui ?!? ...  where the  real action  ( and fun)   is !       

Cheers
Peter

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi again  Geoff

BTW  :  Just spent half  an  hour   downloading  and  file-naming your  bottle pics  1 -3    and  entering  them  in to  my  data  base  ( also  creating a  new  file  for  Lao Tie)

Can't  do much  with  bottle  pic  4  because   we  don't  even have a  name  for the  artist

I - like   you  -  was  initially  only  attracted  to  the  more  traditional   type  Chinese  landscapes .

But  step -by-step  I  started   to  get hooked  on the  more  modern  "Beethoven"  and  " Verdi"    compositions .

I need   to  explain  the  history  of  my little  collection  in more   detail so  you can understand  my   path

Beethoven's   3rd  piano concerto  (one of my   favorites)  shocked  the  then   music world    because  the  piano  came  in  FIRST   before the  orchestra !

Cheers
Peter

PS:  We  penciled- in next  friday  for   dinner   at my place,  but  I'm  still  not  sure  if  my  wife   will be back  from  Wenzhou  in time.  But pls  keep the  pencil-in 

[wgeoff]

Thanks Peter

I'm not sure I can manage more than Hong Kong at the convention - it coincides with the peak of the bird-watching season here!
For the photos, I've only posted low resolution photos that don't take much storage space. This is what I normally do for posting my bird photos on the Hong Kong Bird Watching Society website, which by co-incidence uses the same website software system. I'll send you the full versions by email.

Hope you can manage next Friday but, if you can't, my plans have changed and I can now manage the following Friday 28 February. Looking forward to getting my bottle back!

Geoff 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Geoff,
      I let myself be 'moved!' (or not!  ) by each bottle, but my personal preference is for the more traditional landscape subjects. I have modern style landscapes as well, but because each one personally 'spoke' to me.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom, from Steven's in Plano, TX.
Joey