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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 22, 2018, 07:05:15 am
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Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!

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Author Topic: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!  (Read 1822 times)
YT
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« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2015, 02:20:22 am »

"This bottle has an interesting and unusual subject. The combination of a black tortoise together with a snake symbolizes the North cardinal point, or 'lands to the North', and may be an oblique reference to the Manchu emperors, who descended from the North to overthrow the Ming dynasty and establish the Qing dynasty. The relevance of the second snake is not clear."

Dear Tom,

The Qing emperors will never want to emphasize the fact that they overthrow the Ming.
They promote ManChu and Hans as one family and learnt from each others culture. Being the minority race, the ManChu had to embrace the Han culture to preserve their imperial power.

XuanWu was first heard in the Xia Dynasty夏朝 c. 2070 – c. 1600 BC. It was mainly used to ward off evil.

Cheers,
YT
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Wattana
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« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2015, 02:25:28 am »

Dear YT and Charll,

Thank you both for your input.
YT, the possibility of a second bottle existing to complete the 'feared foursome' set is an interesting one. So one bottle covers the North and West, while the other covers South and East.............all bases covered.  Wink

Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2015, 02:39:53 am »


The Qing emperors will never want to emphasize the fact that they overthrow the Ming.
They promote ManChu and Hans as one family and learnt from each others culture. Being the minority race, the ManChu had to embrace the Han culture to preserve their imperial power.

XuanWu was first heard in the Xia Dynasty夏朝 c. 2070 – c. 1600 BC. It was mainly used to ward off evil.


Dear YT,

Point noted. Thanks for correcting me!

Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2015, 02:50:19 am »

Dear Tom,

You are welcome and I didn't mean to correct you Tongue

Thanks to your North-West to South-East theory.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2015, 05:11:16 am »

Dear YT,
 
     So in effect, would a suggested 2 bottle set, with this bottle displaying  'North XuanWu' and 'West Tiger', and the second bottle displaying 'East Dragon' and 'South Phoenix', would in effect be an amulet, displaying the 'Four Holy Beasts'  and keeping away all demons ?   I assume this is a Daoist belief, rather than Buddhist.

     Thank you for the insight. My first thought was that these were three of the animals representing the Chinese Zodiac, but while  the snake and the tiger are there, the tortoise/turtle is not. I then wondered if it was a rebus, but no luck there, either. Then I wondered if there was a Chinese proverb or story, like one I just learned about from Curt Lam, who was just here with his family.

    One of the four B & W bottles I just got in the Bonham's SFO sale of 23.June,2015, from lot 7186 (from the Bentley Collection, London), has a picture of a bird (a snipe - Thanks Tom; sandpiper - Thanks Inn Bok) with its beak caught in a clam shell. The bird tried to eat the clam's flesh, and its beak was caught by the clam which refused to release it and  both are about to be grabbed by a fisherman, suggesting a Chinese proverb, parable or story which implies that two smaller powers which fight among themselves will inevitably BOTH be swallowed up by a much larger power. Thank you to  Inn Bok for clarifying that it is based on a historical episode.

Best,
Joey


Dear all,

This is what I have gathered so far.

The Taoist god 玄武(xuán wǔ) is the 'Black Tortoise'. Physically it looks like a tortoise entwined together with a snake.
The four holy beast that all demons are afraid of is the "东苍龙、西白虎、南朱雀、北玄武" East Dragon, West Tiger, South Phoenix and North XuanWu.

This Pink overlay could be one of two bottles' set, with the other showing a dragon and a phoenix.
Attached is the top and bottom pics.

Cheers,
YT
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2015, 05:28:28 am »


......a picture of a bird with it's beak caught in a clam shell. The bird tried to eat the clam's flesh, and its beak was caught by the clam which refused to release it and  both are about to be grabbed by a fisherman, suggesting a Chinese proverb or story which implies that two smaller powers which fight among themselves will inevitably BOTH be swallowed up by a much larger power.


Dear Joey,

The story of the snipe and clam is in one of the Raymond Li books; although I don't recall which one off hand. However, I don't remember there being a fisherman in his illustrated example, so the story represents a stalemate, where both adversaries eventually starve to death. The addition of the fisherman into the equation make it a lot more in tune with imperial Middle Kingdom thinking!

Tom
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« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2015, 05:51:03 am »

Tom,

The snipe or sandpiper (?) and the clam's story does involve the fisherman. The Chinese saying is 鹬蚌相争渔翁得利.
   
鹬 (yu ) = snipe / sandpiper
蚌 ( bang ) = clam
相争 ( xiang zheng ) = having conflict / war with each other
渔翁 ( yuweng ) = fisherman
得利 ( deli ) = benefits   

It was a parable that a strategist (during the Warring State period of Chinese history) used to persuade two small fiefdoms ( the Zhao and the Yan states ) not to fight between them, otherwise the big player, Qing state will be the ultimate winner swallowing them up !

Inn Bok
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« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2015, 09:20:19 pm »

Inn Bok,

Thank you for your comprehensive 'breakdown' (for foreigner's consumption) of the full meaning of this Chinese parable. Most educational....!

Tom 
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« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2015, 09:41:57 pm »

Dear Inn Bok,
    Ditto from me!  Wink
Best,
Joey


Inn Bok,

Thank you for your comprehensive 'breakdown' (for foreigner's consumption) of the full meaning of this Chinese parable. Most educational....!

Tom 
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2015, 08:09:29 am »

 I am catching up on reading posts today.  I wanted to comment to all that I did not purchase the bottle that I posted originally for discussion.   I feared it might be modern and backed off. Joey - the one you saw in NC was indeed an old bottle, Yangzhou School, that I purchased earlier.  I do love it and am glad you thought it to be an antique.  We enjoyed your visit and look forward to seeing you in Chicago.
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« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2015, 11:07:19 am »

Dear Jo & David,
      I really enjoyed my visit as well, and also look forward to Chicago.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

I am catching up on reading posts today.  I wanted to comment to all that I did not purchase the bottle that I posted originally for discussion.   I feared it might be modern and backed off. Joey - the one you saw in NC was indeed an old bottle, Yangzhou School, that I purchased earlier.  I do love it and am glad you thought it to be an antique.  We enjoyed your visit and look forward to seeing you in Chicago.
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2017, 08:01:06 am »

Dear all,
I just read the thread of 2014/15 with much interest. An Austrian auction house recently offered a "damask red" Yangzhou bottle. The form reminds A RED-OVERLAY WHITE GLASS SNUFF BOTTLE sold in the Barron IV auction in New York. But the colour is different. Any idea about the age of the damask red bottle (I remember that Joey was saying that if ONE detail is wrong...)?
Thanks for your opinion!
Georges


* rosa fledermäuse und fische Kopie.jpg (24.94 KB, 563x670 - viewed 12 times.)
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« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2017, 02:59:16 pm »

I am not very good with these , but a comment related to one thing wrong.. It seems the shape of the bottle itself is wrong.. I am use to seeing the rectangular, flat shapes..
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« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2017, 03:53:31 pm »

Thanks for your comment, George. But look at the following examples: flat and rounded...
Best
Georges


* Barron IV.jpg (32.57 KB, 835x525 - viewed 10 times.)

* Li Junting 3 Soth NY 230304 47 Kopie.jpg (65.81 KB, 1016x1078 - viewed 11 times.)

* Li Junting 4 Soth NY 230304 27 Kopie.jpg (28.91 KB, 151x164 - viewed 8 times.)
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« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2017, 08:00:32 pm »

Thanks for your comment, George. But look at the following examples: flat and rounded...
Best
Georges

Thanks for the comparison Georges..

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« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2017, 09:16:22 pm »

IMO.... the bottle is modern.

The colour and shape of the bottle is not similar to older bottles...

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2017, 10:10:22 pm »

Dear Georges,

      I have seen other shapes than upright rectangular with raised footrim, but relatively rarely.
     But my feeling, like Pin's, is that it is modern. Though I'd need to see it 'live' to be sure.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2017, 02:49:37 am »

The neck of this bottle seems shorter than usual and the mouth is extremely large (Width of the mouth: 10 mm; Width of the neck: 15 mm). Could that be a distinctive feature of some - old or recent - workshop?

Georges


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« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2017, 03:56:27 am »

The neck of this bottle seems shorter than usual and the mouth is extremely large (Width of the mouth: 10 mm; Width of the neck: 15 mm). Could that be a distinctive feature of some - old or recent - workshop?

Georges

Yes, there is something Georges...  Smiley

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2764.msg37340.html#msg37340
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