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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
April 19, 2018, 12:23:40 pm
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Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!

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Author Topic: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!  (Read 1506 times)
YT
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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2015, 03:32:17 am »

Dear Joey,

That's a very nice and honest opinion.

I presume handling so many imperial bottles is a hazard. Most of the bottles in the world will become very much less attractive.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2015, 06:54:50 am »

Dear YT,
 
    You would think; but I don't agree.
When I saw Tom's modern plain hardstone bottles which he bought in Mongolia, and Giovanni's which he bought in Italy, because of certain details, they were obviously new. But the shapes and markings were so pleasing, I was actually very attracted to them.

    I was very touched and grateful when Giovanni gave me his example, with its 'burning bush' markings so I could use it to give snuff out in Shul (Synagogue) on Shabbat. Since Orthodox Jews can't smoke on Shabbat, but many are still addicted to nicotine, we give out snuff. And it is a social thing as well - I go around offering snuff and also say "Shabbat Shalom" (Sabbath Peace) to each person I greet.

    There are many, many bottles out there which, while not of Imperial manufacture, are of equally high quality. And there are superb modern examples, such as many enamelled porcelains, plain hardstones, and of course IPSBs, which are wonderful examples of the Chinese genius for artistic beauty which has continued for over 3000 years.

    Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

That's a very nice and honest opinion.

I presume handling so many imperial bottles is a hazard. Most of the bottles in the world will become very much less attractive.

Cheers,
YT
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Tom B.
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2015, 01:52:56 pm »

Hello Steven,

You have described the essence of the genius of the "Li Junting" type Yangzhou school carved overlay glass snuff bottles.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that the Yangzhou glass carvers were influenced by the Suzhou stone carvers who could take a dark blob in a chunk of agate and turn it into a wonderful silhouette. 


Thanks Tom for your comparison of the two bottles!!

I really thought the bottle Jo posted at first place was an old bottle, but after seeing the comparison, I start to agree with Joey that bottle could be modern. Not speaking of the color, the carving style is off to me. Hard to explain, but the real Yongzhou bottle really give a 3 dimensional  look by playing with the thickness of the overlay layer of the  glass( like the the first example Tom shared.

I am watching another possible contemporary bottle with very similar carving style with the one Jo shared.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-Chinese-carved-peking-glass-snuff-bottle-2-25-Qing-squirrel-grapes-/231594600811?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ec1d296b.

I believe those two bottles can be from the same studio,very similar style, detailed carving. but missing something when you look closer, I guess its the 3 dimensional feel of the overlay layer.

Steven

It is unfortunate that the eBay SB is so poorly photographed. In my opinion that one actually looks closer to the expected color 'shading' of old Yangzhou SB's especially the grapes. But it may be from the same atelier only a more mature product.  It is definitely not a classic example of Yangzhou carved overlay glass. 

Best regards,

Tom B.


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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2015, 02:17:02 pm »

Dear Joey,

Dear Tom B.,

    Wow! What a lot of info in one post! This was wonderful to read. Thank you.

    This explains 'rawlings' (which you are correct - he never explained). I had never heard of 'snowstorm' glass; but it seems to be a relatively recent term, or possibly was originally also a term in German, which got translated into 'auctionese' English recently.
I'm impressed with the amount of research you've done on this subject.

    Re.my trade with Robert Hall (and thank you for posting my ex.Martin Schoen/ex.JB Silver overlay), it was a great bottle and was purchased by a new great collection in the making, and is back in East Asia.

Best,
Joey

I am not sure but I would think that there is a good chance that "snowstorm" comes from the translation of Chinese descriptions of these bottles.

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2015, 02:21:29 pm »

Dear Joey, Y.T., and other knowledgeable collectors of Yangzhou school SB's,

I have been wondering just how long the glass carving tradition lasted in Yangzhou?  I have seen dates as early as 1786 on overlay SB's attributed to Yangzhou.

According to the latest published research all of those early dates (circa 1800 - 1840) for 'Li Junting' bottles were erroneous.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2003/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-including-fine-chinese-snuff-bottles-from-the-collection-of-ann-john-hamilton-n07881/lot.236.html

By the way just look at the "blue" color of that nice "Li Junting" from the Hamilton collection. 

Since we now know that it was not "Junting" but rather Yunting.  Yunting was the courtesy or leisure name of Li Peisong 李培松, who moved from his native Dantu to Yangzhou around 1870 and had several glass-overlay snuff bottles made bearing dates from 1877 to 1881, as well as some undated bottles.  It is highly likely that SB's were made in Yangzhou at least through the end of the Qing Dynasty in 1911 and possibly continued well into the 20th century.  But for how long?  Collectors and tourists would have made at least a small demand until the upheaval of WWII circa 1940 or am I way off?

Best regards,

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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2015, 08:07:32 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

    I learned from YF Yang that the market for 'Yangzhou Seal School' bottles was fueled by the scholar-collector desires (pretensions?) of the wealthy salt merchants, who wanted to emulate the Literati scholar-collectors, but were limited in collecting and owning certain objects and materials due to sumptuary laws during the late Ming and the Qing dynasties. We know the salt merchants were wealthy and developing refined tastes in the 17th and 18th C.; by the mid-19th C., their wealth and ability to buy luxury goods was on the wane.

   Who has done the new research you mentioned? If it is a certain dealer, the information is not reliable, since he is notorious for changing 'facts' to suit his mercantile needs. Whether it is Li Junting or Yunting (AKA Li Peisong), to whom certain bottles are attributed, surely you are not suggesting that ALL the bottles we refer to as Yangzhou Seal School bottles are by him and attributed to the period ? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

   I'd love to read any info you can suggest to document WHEN Yangzhou Seal bottles were made; but till I'm convinced, I will continue with the 'old' dates of ca. 1780-1850, based on info from YF and Clare Chu.
Best,
Joey
   

 


Dear Joey, Y.T., and other knowledgeable collectors of Yangzhou school SB's,

I have been wondering just how long the glass carving tradition lasted in Yangzhou?  I have seen dates as early as 1786 on overlay SB's attributed to Yangzhou.

According to the latest published research all of those early dates (circa 1800 - 1840) for 'Li Junting' bottles were erroneous.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2003/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-including-fine-chinese-snuff-bottles-from-the-collection-of-ann-john-hamilton-n07881/lot.236.html

By the way just look at the "blue" color of that nice "Li Junting" from the Hamilton collection. 

Since we now know that it was not "Junting" but rather Yunting.  Yunting was the courtesy or leisure name of Li Peisong 李培松, who moved from his native Dantu to Yangzhou around 1870 and had several glass-overlay snuff bottles made bearing dates from 1877 to 1881, as well as some undated bottles.  It is highly likely that SB's were made in Yangzhou at least through the end of the Qing Dynasty in 1911 and possibly continued well into the 20th century.  But for how long?  Collectors and tourists would have made at least a small demand until the upheaval of WWII circa 1940 or am I way off?

Best regards,
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 06:01:48 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2015, 11:44:24 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

I know nuts to Yangzhou bottles.
If late 19th century still commands such pricing as this Lot 155 sold on 1st June 2015 then there are still many people who loves a good Yangzhou bottle.
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-x-hk0576/lot.155.html


Attached is a bottle from Yangzhou that has no writings on it but I like it for it's simplicity. I believe this will be a 1780-1840.
"Five coloured YangZhou Glass Overlay of upright rectangular form with sloping shoulders and a flat lip, with an olive-colored oval foot rim, and overlays of olive, yellow, blue, pink and green on a translucent milk glass ground, one side with a cat and butterflies, reversed by a scholar, presumably Tao Yuanming, with a wine pot and a spray of chrysanthemum, mask ring handles to the sides. 6.2cm high"
Provenance :
Property from the Norton Simon Museum of Art Pasadena, California.
PB 84 New York, 25th Sept 1979, Lot 19.

Cheers,
YT


* 19a.jpg (98.64 KB, 415x800 - viewed 20 times.)

* 19b.jpg (90.43 KB, 398x800 - viewed 18 times.)

* 19c.jpg (146.34 KB, 623x650 - viewed 19 times.)
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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2015, 07:40:14 am »

Dear YT,
     I agree with your dating for this bottle.
     I was actually at PB84 about 2 weeks later, for an auction which included bottles from the Dr. & Mrs. Louis Wolferz, Dr. Sidney Levine,  and Julie Stempel (Al's widow) collections (superb IPSBs, including 3 Ma Shaoxuan portraits and a Ding Erzhong, along with at least another 12 Ma bottles, a number of Zhou Leyuans, and a bunch of other great IPSBs).
     My purchases included 3 lots from the Al & Julie Stempel collection from Hong Kong. I'd met them in 1978 during the ICSBS Hong Kong convention, my first. They were really nice and extremely hospitable, even though Al was dying of cancer. He died in mid-Feb.1979:  lot 75, a white glazed leaf-form bottle, sadly with the flared neck ground down (I later bought one with the neck in original condition); lot 183, a pewter bottle (#74 in my 1987 cat.); and lot 187, a carved coral (#68).
   Best,
    Joey
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« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2015, 12:56:18 am »

Dear Joey,

I saw your Stempel bottle purchases. The 17th Pewter(that's very early) and the ZLY are very nice.
Your later replacement of the soft paste leaf form bought from Bob Stevens is much better.
A ground down similar version will sell less than $1k now.


Do you recognize this Lot 18 Double overlay that sold for $3,500?

Cheers,
YT


* Lot 18 PB84 Oct 1979.jpg (101.35 KB, 800x447 - viewed 30 times.)
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« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2015, 08:24:37 am »

Dear YT,
    It looks familiar, but I was distracted by lot 21, which I loved, but didn't get.  Grin
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2015, 10:20:31 pm »

Dear Joey,

I was about to post this Pink dual glass overlay and about how it was from the collection of Stempel and Szekeres when you point me to this beautiful white on blue overlay. Lot 21 is really beautiful with a simple composition that is enhanced by the excellent control of the carver.

Attached is lot 18 that is not as nice but very rare.

Cheers,
YT


* Pink dual GO1.jpg (122.34 KB, 600x800 - viewed 22 times.)

* Pink dual GO2.jpg (124.09 KB, 600x800 - viewed 18 times.)

* Oct 1986 Szekeres.jpg (130.56 KB, 599x800 - viewed 21 times.)
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« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2015, 12:49:15 am »

Dear YT,

Thanks for hilighting this unusual and rare bottle. I am familiar with the "snake and tortoise" combination, but wondering if the tiger on the reverse side has any significance when combined with the other two creatures.

Regards,
Tom
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« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2015, 01:27:22 am »

Dear Tom,

Glad you like it.  Grin
Can you please share with me the tortoise and snake story? The tail of the snake forms the foot ring.
As for the other side, there is a bat taunting a stalking/growling tiger.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2015, 03:18:09 am »

Dear YT,

I bought an agate bottle with a snake and tortoise theme around 20 years ago. I did some research into its symbolism at the time, and made the below notes. I have not checked any recent books on Chinese rebus and symbolism, so my comments may be off the mark.

"This bottle has an interesting and unusual subject. The combination of a black tortoise together with a snake symbolizes the North cardinal point, or 'lands to the North', and may be an oblique reference to the Manchu emperors, who descended from the North to overthrow the Ming dynasty and establish the Qing dynasty. The relevance of the second snake is not clear."

Maybe someone else can offer a better interpretation.

Tom 
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« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2015, 06:06:37 am »

Dear Tom,
     I've not found any more meanings than the one you mentioned.

Dear YT,
    That bottle (lot 21) was one I really wanted, but it was out of my price range then, and probably today as well.
One of "the ones that got away"...  Grin

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2015, 09:37:35 am »

Dear Tom,

I have managed to find the snake coiling around tortoise story that involves around XuanWu and your mentioned of black tortoise from the north. Thank you.
"The Black Tortoise or Black Turtle is one of the Four Symbols of the Chinese constellations. Despite its English name, it is usually depicted as a turtle entwined together with a snake."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tortoise

As for the tiger and bat, the below translation points to longevity and fortune.
 老虎是“兽”,“兽”同“寿”,蝙蝠的“蝠”同 “福”蝙蝠神兽, 就是 福寿双全

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2015, 10:18:38 am »

Dear YT,
    Could this (the representation of tortoise and snake) have Astrological symbolism in that case? Or is it just presenting a wish for longevity to the recipient?
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2015, 10:03:21 pm »

Thanks YT,

So the black turtle/tortoise seems to consistently represent 'north' (and its guardianship) in several Asian cultures. But I don't understand where the snake fits into the picture. Is there perhaps a Chinese rebus that I am missing?

Tom
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« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2015, 01:17:15 am »


Tom, this is what I know about it. But not being Chinese or knowing the culture that well I'm not sure I completely understand the significance.   Charll

Xuan Wu Dragon Tortoise-
This dragon tortoise has a snake carried on its back and is known to be Xuan Wu or Lord of the North. The Xuan Wu Dragon Tortoise is best to usher in good luck in while suppressing any instability caused by certain energy disorders. These two marshals (i.e., presumably meaning the tortoise and the snake) are said to belong to a deity named Xuan Thien Shang Di.  One representing a water element and the other a fire element. Their combination is said to be able to control fate, relieve disasters, treat ailments, prolong life and bring in good fortune.



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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2015, 02:06:16 am »

Dear all,

This is what I have gathered so far.

The Taoist god 玄武(xuán wǔ) is the 'Black Tortoise'. Physically it looks like a tortoise entwined together with a snake.
The four holy beast that all demons are afraid of is the "东苍龙、西白虎、南朱雀、北玄武" East Dragon, West Tiger, South Phoenix and North XuanWu.

This Pink overlay could be one of two bottles' set, with the other showing a dragon and a phoenix.
Attached is the top and bottom pics.

Cheers,
YT


* Pink dual GO3.jpg (76.02 KB, 600x507 - viewed 8 times.)

* Pink dual GO4.jpg (64.89 KB, 586x432 - viewed 10 times.)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 02:25:26 am by YT » Report Spam   Logged
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