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A Grinder Used In Mongolia

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George
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« on: January 16, 2014, 04:22:08 pm »

Not exactly sure, so can only guess this rotates so as to be able and work horizontal or vertical. 
Probably using various grinders, and other abrasive attachments to hollow out, shape and finish
their bottles..

There also appears to be water hoses attached.. Maybe high pressure core type drilling too..

Not sure..

I have seen something similar used for real rough grinding/sanding here in the states. The motor
runs at about 3200 rpm, but they are stationary in a vertical position. Less any water..

Just not having any luck communicating and I know of no translators that include Mongolian,
but wanted to show this.. 

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 04:26:41 pm by Bottle Guy » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 09:22:04 pm »

George,

That is really interesting! Is this grinder located in Mongolia? Many Mongolians still use snuff, so there is a local demand for new bottles (known locally as khurog). When I was visiting the country in 2005 and 2006 I bought several like these from the State Monopoly Store in Ulaanbaatar, which had large numbers of bottles for sale. This is where locals buy their snuff bottles, just as smokers buy new lighters. As with lighters, there was a wide range of styles, with prices to meet every budget.   But I was led to believe that the hardstone bottles were actually made in China, and only carved surface decoration and stoppers were added in Mongolia, to suit local tastes.

The population of Mongolia is very small. Even if as many as 10% of them are snuff users, the local consumer market for new bottles cannot be significant. The grinding equipment in your picture looks like it's geared up for large scale production. I wonder if it is located in the Mongolian speaking province of China, not Mongolia proper, making bottles for Chinese dealers to sell on eBay! 

The water is needed to keep things cool while grinding, especially while coring the inside. 

I know someone who can translate Mongolian into English, if you are having problems.

Tom
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 01:54:36 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 10:19:46 pm »



I know someone who can translate Mongolian into English, if you are having problems.



No, that's ok Tom..  Several ( Mongolian ? ) collectors and makers of bottles have befriended me lately on Facebook..  I think will be just to confusing..

Here is an example of the language that I thought Mongolian..  https://www.facebook.com/#!/bachabatja
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 10:42:16 pm »

Yep, these people live in Outer Mongolia (outside China), where the language is now written in cyrillic characters, a legacy of 70 years Russian occupation. The 'family shot' is taken in front of the parliament building in Ulaanbaatar.
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2014, 03:59:29 am »

Dear George,
I think that the machine in the picture has nothing to do with snuff bottles. That is a CNC (Computer Numerically Controlled) machine. The table on which there is the plastic blue box, under the grinding tool, is moving along the Z axis, i.e. it can travel from near to far from the observer. The motor of the grinding tool  is placed on a X-Y axis assembly (the three black folding are covering the three movements), so by combining the three movements the grinding tool can do everything, including a sphere for example.
But, first observation. I would expect clear signs of stone dust on the machine. Even if it has been cleaned before to take the picture, being the three black folding made of a sort of tissue they would not looks so clean and black.
Second and most important observation. That type of machine can do everything as said before with very high precision, in the order of less than one hundredth of a millimeter, but to do that it must be programmed via computer. The operator by means of a Computer Aided Design program draw the object to be made in three dimensional view and then the program translates all the dimensional into numerical coordinates and send them to the machine. Now, all the stone bottles that I have seen didn’t belongs from a computer aided design. They always have some asymmetry, bending, uneven thickness of the walls etc. Now can you imagine to do that on the computer? Who have seen two exactly shaped bottles? A drawing for each bottle? It is not viable in my opinion, considering that it would take a lot of time of specialized workers in one case, and less time by low paid workers in the other case.
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 04:12:46 am »

Dear Giovanni,
     Thank you for your engineer's observations! Would I be right in thinking that the CNC machine you describe is similar to that used by scale model-makers using acrylic, resin and glass? 
     So you think it has nothing to do with the snuff bottles in the picture? Is it possible that the machine was only used to carve a design on those bottles (one which could then be repeated on many bottles)?

Tom
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 11:23:13 am »

Dear Tom,
that is perfectly possible, I didn't thought about that. Yes, a clever choice, it is enough to have the program for various size of bottles and voilà, outside hand made and inside machined. Good point.
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2014, 12:31:32 pm »

It is odd that what appears to be this carvers work area is very clean, and shows no signs of water usage for what I am sure is a standard and stationary grinder.

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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2014, 04:00:01 pm »

Dera George,
that type of carving tool is what I expect. A fixed rotary tool and the bottle held by hand. The difference among bottles that I did try to explain in my previous post belongs from that approach.
If you look at the picture in my opinion the complete motor and his support base have the same uniform color that in my opinion is due to stone dust encrustation. The lamp too looks dirty.
Giovanni
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 04:08:25 pm »

It surprises me that anyone would work any kind of stone dry with no water..  Can be very hazardous to a lapidaries health..


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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 04:13:39 pm »

Dear Georges I fully agree with you, although I am not a lapidary. Actually we do not know if he dos not use water. It may be that he use a bucket of water in which he pluges the bottle frequently.
Anyone here in the forum that have seen a bottle carver at work?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2014, 06:09:37 am »

Dear George and Giovanni,
      From the discussion and the pictures posted here I am sticking to my hunch that the carving is limited to surface decoration (which can be applied using tools similar to a dentist's drill), and final polishing. That would accord with the information I was given, which is that most of the new bottles are imported from China, and have only the stoppers and carving of Mongolian themes carved upon them to satisfy local tastes. Most if the bottles I saw in Ulaanbaatar were on sale for local use, not for tourists.
      I was also informed that there were only two "master carvers" in Ulaanbaatar, who made 'bespoke' bottles from scratch from chunks of raw stone. Of course, that was a few years ago, and may no longer be the case.
     
Tom
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2014, 07:56:06 am »

Dear Tom,
    Is there any way to contact the two master carvers, and can one supply the stone or is one limited to choosing from their 'stock' of raw material?
Joey



Dear George and Giovanni,
      From the discussion and the pictures posted here I am sticking to my hunch that the carving is limited to surface decoration (which can be applied using tools similar to a dentist's drill), and final polishing. That would accord with the information I was given, which is that most of the new bottles are imported from China, and have only the stoppers and carving of Mongolian themes carved upon them to satisfy local tastes. Most if the bottles I saw in Ulaanbaatar were on sale for local use, not for tourists.
      I was also informed that there were only two "master carvers" in Ulaanbaatar, who made 'bespoke' bottles from scratch from chunks of raw stone. Of course, that was a few years ago, and may no longer be the case.
     
Tom
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 08:51:24 am »

Dear Joey,
     A few years ago I helped a Mongolian colleague's husband (also Mongolian) find a large piece of lapis lazuli in Bangkok. He took it back to Mongolia, where a master carver created the bottle that was illustrated in my JICSBS article a year or so ago. He was actually looking for a piece of green jadeite in Bangkok, but without luck, as we found out all the finest Burmese jadeite is bought at the mines by Chinese wholesalers, who send it directly to China. Only the inferior grade stuff is available here. So he settled for the lapis.
     I was told that there were only two such master lapidaries, and both had a long waiting list of customers. There was some reluctance when I asked to meet one of these carvers, so I assume that they either don't wish to share such information, or that the carvers themselves perhaps have little interest in meeting outsiders. I can ask again, but cannot be sure I will get any further this time around.
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2014, 09:55:18 am »

Dear Tom,
     I'd appreciate it if you could attempt to find out how to contact them, and also if you could find out how much it would cost to commission a plain, well-hollowed out bottle with a raised footrim, and what 'lead-time' is needed (ie., if it was commissioned in Oct.2014, when would it be ready ±), after they received the material.
  Thanks,
     Joey
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2014, 12:19:57 pm »

. There was some reluctance when I asked to meet one of these carvers, so I assume that they either don't wish to share such information, or that the carvers themselves perhaps have little interest in meeting outsiders. .

I have read this someplace to be very true.. They do not want to meet outsiders...
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2014, 01:14:40 pm »

Why is that? Are they insular, or afraid of looking primitive next to people from the First World?
Joey
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2014, 01:55:05 pm »

Think I should clarify..

It's not that they do not want to meet outsiders in general, but have read that they do not want to share either their lapidary skill, or the precious stones that they plan on creating bottle from.. 
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2014, 03:04:47 pm »

Oh.
 Thanks for the clarification.
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2014, 08:56:30 pm »

Dear Joey,
    I will try and re-establish contact with my old colleague (it's been almost 5 years since we were last in touch). But even before doing so, I can say with some certainty that their carvers will have no interest in creating a plain stone bottle. From what I understand, these 'masters' are revered as artists. It is the artistry and cultural symbolism of the decorative themes on the bottles that makes them sought after amongst Mongolians.
    I am attaching some pictures of that lapis lazuli bottle as an example of the work they produce in Mongolia. The base of the bottle is also carved, with a theme of two fish.
    If you simply want a plain stone bottle, you may find it a lot easier and definitely cheaper to approach one of the lapidary workshops in the Shanghai region, which are churning out most of the modern stone bottles you see on eBay and elsewhere.

All best,
Tom


* DSC_4198a-lo.jpg (157.96 KB, 600x830 - viewed 22 times.)

* DSC_4207-lo.jpg (191.51 KB, 600x532 - viewed 30 times.)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 09:01:49 pm by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

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