Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles

[David]

Hi George,

  I did not even know ceramic, porcelain, stoneware etc... are actually all related until I saw your introductory thread!

I dug around and found a couple bargains (under 10 just to get a feel)  and one or two promising one (did not buy yet):

Chinese Ceramics: From the Paleolithic Period through the Qing Dynasty (The Culture & Civilization of China, Laurie Barns

Chinese Blue & White Porcelain, Duncan Machintosh

But, I need to finish what I bought first. So putting a hard stop on books of knowledge for now.

David

[David]

Hi Giovanni,

I was assuming for equally good underglaze color, painting, glazing etc... Then the concentric circle base might be used to separate older versus newer or palace versus not palace. But, mainly as hand thrown or not.

up to 20%! shrinkage wow, that is a lot. Wonder if this kind of shrinkage causes a lot of the hand thrown one to crack!

Thinking on it some more... as I recalled a movie... Naked Guns where there was a funny scene about pottery mud thrown all over...

So in the beginning, you have a coiled base and wall of mud.

Then the wheel start to turn, throwing the mud around. The craftsman uses his hand or finger or tool to push in to hold the mud from splattering the room and making it into a pillar bottle shape.

The coiling on the outside will be smoothed out due to contact to his hands.

The coiling at the bottom remains, like rings of circles. But is completely flat.

The coiling on the inside remains, and will be pushed up on the internal wall.

Then they take this bottle (keeping it on the board), and let it dry. The they fire it. If it shrinks by up to 20%, then this might be the time when the bottom becomes a little con caved (just a guess...).

So, bottles with these kind of circle (inside swirl circle climbing up, bottom concave circles) are most likely hand thrown, while the flat one are most likely molded.

David

[George]

Thanks David..

I found the "Chinese Ceramics: From the Paleolithic Period through the Qing Dynasty", but also stumbled upon and ordered this "Chinese Glazes: Their Origins, Chemistry, and Recreation"

A hard copy was only 26.00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0812234766/ref=tmm_hrd_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&sr=&qid=

That is going to have to be the end of my book orders for some time..  After spending over 700.00 over the past couple days, I am also going to have to put the brakes on any others for a bit !  So will put the Chinese Ceramics book on my wish list..

Thanks David...   

[Wattana]

So in the beginning, you have a coiled base and wall of mud.

Then the wheel start to turn, throwing the mud around. The craftsman uses his hand or finger or tool to push in to hold the mud from splattering the room and making it into a pillar bottle shape.

The coiling on the outside will be smoothed out due to contact to his hands.

The coiling at the bottom remains, like rings of circles. But is completely flat.

Hi David,
    The rings on these snuff bottles are concentric, not coiled. Consequently, I do not see how they can be in any way connected to the forming process you have described. It seems far more probable that it is just a decorative finishing touch, as Giovanni has suggested.

George and David,
    Thanks for the book suggestions. Your mentioning the Duncan Macintosh book jogged my memory. I had a copy of this one for many years. It was very useful in helping me distinguish Ming wares from more recent porcelains.

Tom

[David]

Hi Tom,

I guess that is not a good choice of word "coil". If you take a long strip of dough (like a thick rope) or mud, then you cut it into little sections with each section longer then the last.

Then you put a small ball of mud at the center of the board (so when it spins, that ball is at the center of the spin).

Then take the smallest section and surround the ball to form a circle, trim excess.

Then take the next slightly longer section and surround the ball+ 1 circle, trim excess.

Then take the next slightly longer section and surround the ball+ 2 circles, trim excess.

Repeat until the base size is good.

Then add wall, and continue with what I posted earlier.

Will this be reasonable to make the concentric circles?

David

[Wattana]

Hi David,

You may be right. To be honest, I have no idea. I never got past first grade in pottery class at school! And that was many, many years ago. 

Tom

[David]

Hi Tom,

It's getting late for me, so I need to go to sleep soon.

I never took pottery class before (think my dad will kill me if I did), but I took "dough kneading" classes when I was a kid. During new year, the ladies are responsible for cooking, and they love to snatch boys in their early teens (enough strength to knead dough, but not old enough to join the men) to help with kneading the dough that will be used to make dumplings, noodles, green onion pancake, and a kind of flour block soup.

So, I had a lot of practice with kneading. And since we get bored easily, we make all kinds of dough shaped things... including sh-t of all shape and sizes. 

Some are coiled like a snake about to strike, realistic like a dog, and others are like ring stacks. Kind of got my idea from there plus that movie scene...

Have a good day (night for me),
David

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear George,
“Chinese glazes” by Nigel Wood is considered the Bible of the books on Chinese glazes. Duncan Macintosh’s book too is a nice one. I have about 100 books on Chinese ceramics, but I want to warn you all of what I meant by saying that I am not aware of books related to snuff bottles making: all those books are of scarce interest in my opinion for what concern snuff bottles. The Chinese ceramic field is incredibly vast and it is completely useless to know, for example, the many types of ceramics of the Song period to whom is interested in snuff bottles. The basic notions on how porcelain is made, glazed and so on can be seen and understood through a lot of Youtube movies. Snuff bottles are Qing and later porcelain ware, with the only few variation of soft or hard paste, under glaze cobalt blue and/or copper red, over glaze polychrome enamels. What is interesting to know for snuff bottles lovers is the ability to distinguish the different painting styles within the Qing dynasty, and variation of enamels. This is mainly acquired by seeing many right dated examples, better if directly handled at auction houses etc.
Dear David, search on Youtube some movie showing how a porcelain piece is thrown out on the wheel, and you will see that all the complication of joining coils etc. is a non sense. That is a technique used before the invention of the potter wheel.
The circles on the base of the snuff bottles in question are undoubtedly carved.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[George]

Dear George,
“Chinese glazes” by Nigel Wood is considered the Bible of the books on Chinese glazes. i

Good to hear... Then I made a good choice purchasing it... !

[David]

Hi Giovanni,

That is a lot of books! No wonder you know so much on this area.

Will you ever consider to write one on porcelain snuff bottle? It will be nice if a hobby can also be a scholarly pursuit for some people. And if there are no book in this area, then perhaps you can be like Raymond Li when he wrote the book on Snuff Bottle Rebuses. (Toss mud brick, entice the jade... just a humble way for an expert to start something, without taking credit)

  My to read list is getting longer and longer! Not going to commit yet, but I might look at the videos after I finish reading.

If we assume it is carved... how do they carve the inside of the bottle to make it look like it is thrown (assuming that is what happens)?

Warm Regards,
David

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear David,
you wrote: "If we assume it is carved... how do they carve the inside of the bottle to make it look like it is thrown (assuming that is what happens)?"
Who wrote that? Please re-read what I wrote. I always said that the bottles are moulded or thrown out on the wheel. And I said that the circles are carved.
I think that I have been clear.
Giovanni

[rpfstoneman]

And I said that the circles are carved.

Giovanni,

I suspect it might be done with wood or metal tap & die type tool.  More of a press and twist once the bottle is centered on the die.  More of a cutting tool than carving.

Charll

[David]

Hi Giovanni,

I only picked up on this topic when I saw this thread. Sorry, I guess I missed some background on this discussion and I misunderstood what you posted on the underlined part:

In the case of the dragon pillar bottles with those circular ribs, I suppose (note, SUPPOSE, not supported by facts or documentation) that the ribs are purposely made in so exaggerated way to evidence that the bottle has been thrown out on the wheel, which imply that it is an object made with much more care, a more precious one. In fact it is impossible to have those ribs on a two halves mould. My supposition is supported also by the fact that the bottles with those circular ribs has a much more fine decoration than the common ones. My two cents (or two bucks, I don’t know).

I misunderstood that part to mean that the bottles were molded and not thrown. I think I understand what you are saying now...

The bottle is thrown so the inside swirl marks. But the concentric circles of the base are carved/exaggerated (or what Charll mentioned) to make it look better.

Apologetic Regards,
David

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear David, you are welcome. 
Dear Charll, by carving I mean that the grooves are carved, (or incised, I don’t know the proper word), by means of a tool being it a piece of bamboo, a steel tool or else.
I don’t think that they have been made by pressing the bottle onto a die, because it seems to me that the grooves are not cut vertically in some cases. It seems that the carving tool was kept inclined to the axis of the bottle. And besides that the ribs has the typical roughness resulting from carving, although not in all cases.
But in any case, there is also another point worth to consider. What has been made before, the whole bottle and then the circles? Or the contrary? I don’t know. Lets ponder a bit. Suppose that you take an handful of clay, and impress on it the circles with a die. Then you have to thrown out the bottle on the wheel, so you have to place the clay on it. But in doing that, you have to perfectly align the center of the molded rings with the center of the wheel. Hmmm…. almost impossible.
Then let say that the circles are made after the bottle. So you thrown out the bottle on the wheel, then you have to take it out for making the circles. If the circles are made by means of a die, you have to align perfectly the center of the die and the bottom of the bottle. Not easy. Besides that, in making the necessary pressure, you for sure will infer some deformation to the body of the bottle. I would discard this possibility.
OK, then let’s carve the circles. But here too we have a problem. We have to perfectly align the axis of the upside down turned bottle to the axis of the wheel. Hmmm…..another problem.
Conclusion: how they do that? Do we need to admit to the Forum some guy from the fake’s making industry? 

[David]

Hi Giovanni,

A thought occurred to me as I was logging off.

If someone have a bottom that is broken or you score halfway and then snap the other half.

Then you look at the cross section, will you be able to tell conclusively if the concentric circle of the base (biscuit?) is carved or leftover?

Best Regards,
David

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear  David,
I am not sure if I understood you or not. What do you mean by “leftover”? Are you asking  if by the cross section of the base we can say if the circles are carved or molded? If so, I think yes only in the case that the cutting tool has not been parallel to the bottle axis but very tilted. In my opinion what is more indicative is the surface of the ribs, because usually the texture of a carved area is different from a molded one.
Anyway, my previous post was just aimed to drag the attention to a detail that seems obvious at a normal approach, but indeed it is a bit more complicated. At least to me, but be aware that I am not a potter, and as often happens what seems a problem to an inexperienced it isn’t indeed at all to the insider. 
Kind regards
Giovanni

[David]

Hi Giovanni,

Just from our discussions on glass, and seeing your attention to detail and technique to prove the cinnabar bottle, I will take your opinion over most present day potters.

One of the reason I don't want to see the you-tube videos yet is that I want to read those chinese porcelain book first, without contaminating myself with too much modern porcelain ideas.

Yes, you understood correctly. I never thought of cutting at an angle to the bottle axis (I assume this axis is at the center and perpendicular to the base?)... why will that be better to show the "internal signature"?

I was thinking of the snap after score, because I was worried that the action of cutting will grind out all the "signatures".

Warm Regards,
David

[George]

Dear George,
“Chinese glazes” by Nigel Wood is considered the Bible of the books on Chinese glazes. Duncan Macintosh’s book too is a nice one. I have about 100 books on Chinese ceramics, but I want to warn you all of what I meant by saying that I am not aware of books related to snuff bottles making: all those books are of scarce interest in my opinion for what concern snuff bottles. The Chinese ceramic field is incredibly vast and it is completely useless to know, for example, the many types of ceramics of the Song period to whom is interested in snuff bottles. The basic notions on how porcelain is made, glazed and so on can be seen and understood through a lot of Youtube movies. Snuff bottles are Qing and later porcelain ware, with the only few variation of soft or hard paste, under glaze cobalt blue and/or copper red, over glaze polychrome enamels. What is interesting to know for snuff bottles lovers is the ability to distinguish the different painting styles within the Qing dynasty, and variation of enamels. This is mainly acquired by seeing many right dated examples, better if directly handled at auction houses etc.
Dear David, search on Youtube some movie showing how a porcelain piece is thrown out on the wheel, and you will see that all the complication of joining coils etc. is a non sense. That is a technique used before the invention of the potter wheel.
The circles on the base of the snuff bottles in question are undoubtedly carved.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Some how I ended up with two copies of this "Chinese Glazes"..

If anyone would like a copy, I can mail it within the US for a total of 25.00 to someone via media mail..

[Pat - 查尚杰]

George

I will take it... let me know how much to send you. Thanks!

[richy88]

Hi All

My Dragon Pillar bottle finally arrived!

Here are the photos for your viewing pleasure. I am using a new camera and some of the shots do not do justice to the bottle. Anyway, I will be redoing the photographs again after I find a suitable top for it. Any suggestion?

The bottle is almost in perfect condition with a few minor firing flaws on the base.

For some unknown reasons, the photo appeared in the wrong orientation after attaching to the post. The image preview shows the correct upright position.

Enjoy!