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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 29, 2024, 03:42:32 am
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Dragon Pillar Snuff Bottles

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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2014, 08:16:16 pm »

Richard, a great bottle!

Well, I was more than tempted on the one.  Sounds like Richard (the successor), Steven, and I were all biding on this bottle.  My budget was not that strong at the moment due to some other bottle purchases or I would have  considered making a better run for this bottle.  Even with the premium and shipping Richard, if the condition is 100%, you got a great deal on this one.  I have some further comments on this bottle but would like to wait to see your pictures once it arrives.  If a hard paste bottle which appears to be I believe Joey's dating is correct, but it could be even a bit earlier.

Charll   
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« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2014, 08:16:16 am »

Hi All

Thank you all for your compliments!

Joey, I think the motif is closer to your #9 in Dragon but it is even closer to Charll's bottle posted in this thread except the the decorations around the neck are different.

By the way, I found some interesting bottles and motifs while browsing through your Dragon book again. I will post it under a separate thread,

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2014, 08:24:28 am »

Dear Richard,
   fair enough. The only dragon I really don't like in my book, is illustrated in #7. He looks like he's on drugs! I saw the mate to it among the John Ault bottles for sale at Wooley & Wallis, Salisbury, UK last week, in underglaze copper red. Didn't look any better in that colour...
Best,
 Joey


Hi All

Thank you all for your compliments!

Joey, I think the motif is closer to your #9 in Dragon but it is even closer to Charll's bottle posted in this thread except the the decorations around the neck are different.

By the way, I found some interesting bottles and motifs while browsing through your Dragon book again. I will post it under a separate thread,

Regards.


Richard
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2014, 08:25:55 am »

Dear Charll,
    You and Steven were biding; Richard was bidding. That's why he got the bottle.  Wink
Best,
  Joey


Richard, a great bottle!

Well, I was more than tempted on the one.  Sounds like Richard (the successor), Steven, and I were all biding on this bottle.  My budget was not that strong at the moment due to some other bottle purchases or I would have  considered making a better run for this bottle.  Even with the premium and shipping Richard, if the condition is 100%, you got a great deal on this one.  I have some further comments on this bottle but would like to wait to see your pictures once it arrives.  If a hard paste bottle which appears to be I believe Joey's dating is correct, but it could be even a bit earlier.

Charll   
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« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2014, 09:00:02 pm »

Richard,

an excvellent find ! Congrat !

Inn Bok
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« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2014, 11:10:48 pm »

Hi Tom, Richard and Joey,

Why does the base of these bottles have those concentric circle marks? I am currently halfway on Chinese Snuff Bottle, by Perry.

She mentioned in the porcelain section that the pillar bottles are made in a one piece mold and that when they take it out, it makes those mark on the base. But it is very unclear to me... As to why taking it out of a mold will leave such perfect circle marks?

Is there a good beginner book on how chinese porcelain are made pertaining to snuff bottle or a general book?

Thanks,
David
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David

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« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2014, 11:28:25 pm »

Hi David,

A very good question. They only appear on these cylindrical bottles, but not all.

Unfortunately I don't know the reason for them. Richard, Charll and Joey may be better able to give you an answer.

Tom
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« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2014, 11:32:41 pm »

David,

The dragon pillar bottles as shown by Richard and myself are potted on a wheel.  When you look inside the bottle you can see remnants of the clay coils or clay rings built upon each other.  So these earlier type of concentric ring bottles are not molded.  The rings on the base I would speculate are either from the wheel or are made by a tool which is used to slightly depress the base once the bottle was formed. This depressed base forms an outer foot ring on which the bottle rests, and likely provides more stability while standing than a that of a flat bottom.

Charll  
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« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2014, 11:58:46 pm »

Charll,

I have seen many dragon pillar bottles with these concentric circles, and having a completely flat base.

Tom
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« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2014, 01:02:38 am »

Charll,

I have seen many dragon pillar bottles with these concentric circles, and having a completely flat base.

Tom

Yes, but the flat base bottles tend to be later versions. The flat based concentric ring bottles I have and many of bottles that I have seen with this base style are late 1800 to earlier 1900 bottles, and I suspect not imperial in origin.  This of course is not to say that there cannot be flat based bottles of imperial origin.

Charll
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« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2014, 01:51:12 am »

Dear Tom,
   I would tend to agree with Charll, because all my earlier pillar bottles with concentric circles on the base, have been very gently concave.
   
Dear David,
    WHY do these bottles have this distinctive base? I've no idea, but reckon that Charll's answer, based at least partially on his late mom's being a potter, sounds very plausible.
    Sadly, the two people of whom I could have asked this question profitably, both passed away earlier this year: Robert Kleiner (in Jan.) and John Ault (in Apr.).

  Best to all,
    Joey
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« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2014, 02:02:01 am »

Dear all,
we all know that most of porcelain bottles are made by mould. Usually the joining lines of the two halves are clearly visible inside the bottles, and in some cases outside too, despite the potter should smooth them away. In the case of the dragon pillar bottles with those circular ribs, I suppose (note, SUPPOSE, not supported by facts or documentation) that the ribs are purposely made in so exaggerated way to evidence that the bottle has been thrown out on the wheel, which imply that it is an object made with much more care, a more precious one. In fact it is impossible to have those ribs on a two halves mould. My supposition is supported also by the fact that the bottles with those circular ribs has a much more fine decoration than the common ones. My two cents (or two bucks, I don’t know).
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2014, 02:03:34 am »

I note that Richard's new bottle has the double blue lines at the foot, seen on some examples, including one in Charll's earlier posting on this thread. Does that signify a particular production date / period?

Tom
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« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2014, 08:18:51 am »

Dear Richard,

I don't quite know how to view blue n Whites. Why don't the 3(Charll and Steven) of you work together to get the bottles that are now on EBay? Looks like quite a few good ones around now.

Sorry if I'm too nosy.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2014, 08:51:21 am »

Hi YT

Thank you for your suggestion.

Occasionally, you may find some good bargains in eBay, but extremely rare. I believed Steven and me comb eBay at least once a week with the collector weekly update but most items are new reproductions as far as porcelain goes. I am only more interested in the hardstone bottles as material, not age, is a more prominent factor.

Regards.


Richard

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« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2014, 08:53:14 am »

Hi All

I will try to do some research regarding the flat and concave base as well as the horizontal blue lines in the motif and keep you updated of my findings.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2014, 11:20:31 am »

I would like to hear Joey, the King of the dragon bottles  Grin, about my theory that the rings on the base are purposely exagerated so to evidence that the bottle has been individually hand made. Dear Joey, would you think that it is possible?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2014, 11:50:05 am »

Hi Charll, Richard, Tom, Giovanni and Joey,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

That is right (Charll)... I just recalled after reading your post, in that porcelain section of Perry's book, the letter from a porcelain research expert (?), he did mentioned that round shaped are thrown on wheels, while more complex shape are made from mold from what he understand of the record of the missionaries from that time.

So, there is no real published/reviewed consensus/solid research on this?

Hi Giovanni,

I actually like/agree with you theory this time  Shocked

So, is it possible that the older ones that Joey and Charll have are made by master craftsman that takes the time/effort and can mold something so small by wheel, while the latter ones (either due to productivity or lack of teachings or the masters being assigned to other more important project of the palace) are made by lesser craftsman with mold and then they impress or cut the concentric circles?

Do you know if the porcelain expand or shrink during drying or firing? I was thinking if that is the reason for the bottom of Charll's bottle with inside/outside coils being concave, while the ones that are molded are flat?


Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2014, 02:18:57 pm »

Dear David,
I am not sure if I have understood you correctly. It is not the circles on the base that turn a bottle into a fine one. First comes the quality of the painting. I meant that the circles could be a plus, but referring to an already recognized high quality bottle. If the bottle is an average one, circles or not circles it remain an average bottle.
Porcelain has a substantial shrinking during firing. After having been modeled, a piece has a first shrinking while letting it drying before firing, then a further shrinking during firing. At the end of the process, the total shrinking is about 20% if I recall well.
Kind regards
Giovanni
PS: I am not aware of a specific book of snuff bottle making.
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« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2014, 04:49:53 pm »

David.. You got me to thinking, and then to searching !

My knowledge about porcelain is greatly lacking.. Really need some good reference material to learn about some of your questions and many more..

Found and ordered this one.. Hardcover too  Wink

"Chinese Glazes : Their Origins, Chemistry, and Recreation"

From what I can see within the previewed pages this looks like quite an action packed 280 page book..  ..

There are several available for 28.00... http://www.booksamillion.com/search?raresearch=1&id=6162539267174&qisbn=9780812234763&qty_avail=18&chunk=10&qsort=p

Maybe someone else has some book suggestions for learning more about porcelain, how made, glazes etc... Maybe more specific to bottles..  Because I have not handled enough, I still can not even tell the difference between a soft and hard paste..
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 05:30:56 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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