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October 23, 2017, 10:16:39 am
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Cloisonne Bottle To Share..

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Author Topic: Cloisonne Bottle To Share..  (Read 522 times)
Joey
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« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 06:15:49 am »

George and Giovanni,
     I'm convinced that the bottle (possibly a perfume bottle, since I don't know of people using snuff bottles in Russia. They were famous for their snuff boxes, including examples by Faberge.), is Russian, and may well have been buried for some reason (to hide a then valuable object from the Communists?).
   
  Charll,
     I agree that glass does get oxidised.
I don't agree with the farfetched story by certain dealers of huge amounts of facetted glass bottles being buried and now dug up. And I couldn't understand quoting them without any caveats, as if this story was serious. I asked YF about such stories, when they first started being spread. Mr Yang pulled out a small nephrite Jade fondling piece, held it a moment, and handed it to me to play with.
   He then asked me back, "Joey, you have been studying "Zhongwen" (Chinese Culture) for 40 years now. If Chinese were going to be buried with a material object which was personal, wouldn't it automatically be a piece of Jade?"
   This was the source of my question to ethnic Chinese re. their personal and cultural preferences if being buried with an object.
Best,
   Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rpfstoneman
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2013, 01:10:08 am »

Quote
According to Chinese civil law, a grave, whether it is the container of mortal remains or of specific commemorative items with a personal symbolism, belongs to the deceased's next of kin. It also contains the citizen’s human dignity as stipulated in the Chinese constitution.

Therefore, it obvious that the recent tomb removal policy put in place in Henan Province is a serious affront to the people. In the city of Zhoukou alone, two million graves had been leveled in the past three months. This personally affects tens of millions of people. The local officials are humans too; they should understand people’s feelings. So what kind of pressure prompted them to risk infamy with such outrageous measures?

Read the full article: A Million Vanishing Tombs - Why China Is Turning Graveyards Into Farmlands - All News Is Global
Worldcrunch - top stories from the world's best news sources

Joey,

I'm not saying that I do not disagree with you about the sale of said bottles you question.  I was just stating that tomb leveling, movement, and land reclamation is occurring in China as demonstrated in this one example of what I expect to be many, and that there may be some underlining truths behind the tales of artifacts being raised during gave removals.  It sounds from the articles that the people on the land, or the deceased kin, are being asked to move graves with very little control or regulation.  In this process, the liberation of artifacts would not be unexpected.  I wonder how much grave movement took place during the Three Gorges Dam project alone?  If one wishes to read more on this subject here are two links on this single incident:

http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-society/a-million-vanishing-tombs-why-china-is-turning-graveyards-into-farmlands/china-tomb-removal-leveling-henan/c3s10202/#.UrKRVvRDubU

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-02/20/content_16241521.htm
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Joey
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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2013, 08:54:23 am »

Charll,
    I know that this is going on. I want to see a DOCUMENTED example of the extraction of an octagonal glass snuff bottle from a grave. ONE.
    I have spoken to people with connections in the Beijing area, who have asked government officials  and private 'entrepeneurs' if they know about tomb goods being unearthed, and available for sale. Both sources, public and 'private', deny it.
    Best,
      Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2013, 03:50:11 am »

This has turned into a fun bottle to examine.. !

There are no Russian hallmarks.

The first thing I noticed was how very heavy it is for it's size. Started to question if it was just a solid body or possibly packed with something for whatever reason. Looking at the top, it almost seemed like that was possible. Then I realized that the black around the inside perimeter of the bezel setting was not the remains of some kind of stone or plastic cabochon. It was a soft unknown gunk was easily removed. Followed by a hard glue that was used to hold the cabochon that use to be there.



I could not get over the weight. So my curiosity kicked in and decided to drill through the hardened glue to see what I hit. Figured I could simply place a cabochon over the drilled hole.

During the drilling, the top "unscrewed" and came right off on the clockwise moving drilling motion of the drill. Here is a little bit of a twist, because turns out that the threads are left handed !
 





Turns out that the excessive weight is due to the thick body being solid silver. As can be seen after some better than gentle  Wink cleaning on the cloisonne areas where the enamel has been lost. And also the base..





To give an idea of how heavy this is, in comparison to a solid silver one ounce round, the bottle is only two grams lighter..



Now for my reward in return for letting my curiosity get me this far was finding some of the most wonderful snuff I have ever tried !  Cheesy



At first, the only other examples of the floral motif were being found on Russian works.. Until I found what at least appears to be a Chinese snuff bottle with the same motif.



So the questions I am left with are..

Joey dated the previously posted Christies raised twisted wire examples as 20th century. Here is another solid silver body bottle ( snuff ? ) that I am sure is 20th c., and shows the same left handed threaded bottle, with the spoon.







I know it was used as a snuff bottle, even though there was no spoon.

Can’t explain the left handed threads, even after finding another example.. Left handed threads just do not seem like a Chinese design.

The heavy solid silver body is unusual to me, as I always thought these cloisonne works used copper bodies.

And I do know that the snuff was absolutely wonderful !  Cheesy
 
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Fiveroosters
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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2013, 04:45:22 am »

Dear George,
I am glad that you found it is made of silver, and a heavy one!
The cloisonnè Chinese bottle that you show above has not thre same design, that is typical Chinese, your one not IMO.
Out of curiosity, how do you know that the snuff is good? Have you snuffed it? Is it not dangerous, supposing that it could not be snuff?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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George
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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2013, 06:09:19 am »

Your right Giovanni.. Not as close a match on the motif as it should be..

As for the snuff.. I rubbed some between my fingers, and then put them up to my nose and inhaled.. At first did not actually sniff a pinch of it. Just kept rubbing it between my fingers and inhaling the scent from it.. It had a wonderful smell, cleared my nostrils, and the auroma lingered for a long time.  I kept on doing this until there was no more to rub between my fingers.

I don't really know if it could be dangerous to inhale an aged snuff powder...  Maybe it is like wine, and gets better with age !  Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2013, 12:29:38 pm »

Dear George,
     The snuff should be fine. Chinese screwnecks are in opposite direction to Western, as far as I know.
 Best,
 Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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