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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 18, 2017, 08:51:16 am
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Cloisonne Bottle To Share..

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Question: w9bK4y
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zNTFOTCGHFz
jDVcrycFQrt
UVwaBDnWKQCsRnUMrVE
pWdjqbxmMAowIbEffjp

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Author Topic: Cloisonne Bottle To Share..  (Read 529 times)
George
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« on: December 16, 2013, 06:48:55 pm »

Purchased from Hess Auctions via eBay.

Provenance is Early 19th bottle from the RJP Collection of Fine Chinese Jade and Decorative Arts.

1 5/8" tall..

Would like to hear from others about cleaning, or not to clean..







« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 06:56:01 pm by Bottle Guy » Report Spam   Logged

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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 07:19:43 pm »

George,

All I can say is this bottle looks to have a heavily crusted patina.  It has the appearance of being buried for some time.  The concern is that some of the enamel is missing.  If the enamels are intact and firm I would consider cleaning, but this one looks a bit problematic. 

Charll   
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Steven
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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 08:12:44 pm »

Hi George,

I will share some comments with Charll, it looks like the enamel is missing at several spots.
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George
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2013, 08:54:03 pm »

Yes, I was aware, and the seller did share about the enamel...  It was cheap..

I just like old relic looking items like this bottle... So I gave the missing enamel a pass...  Smiley
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Wattana
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2013, 09:13:10 pm »

George,

A nice find!  Personally, I would not clean the bottle, other than removing any loose debris with a soft (very soft) dry brush. The patination and oxidation are part of its overall charm.

Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 03:10:53 am »

George,
   I don't know the auction and don't know the collection, but that bottle is 20th C. Chinese  (or Japanese) Cloisonne was never made in this way before the 1930s, with exposed wires.
  Joey
 
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 05:59:55 am »

After your comment Joey, started to dig a little more..

Finding that Russia was creating 19th century raised "twisted" wire cloisonne in a variety of mediums including snuff boxes and bottles...

I might be inclined to believe it 19th century Russian over being a 20th century China/Japan cloisonne piece.  One thing that will aid in attributing to Russia, would be a hallmark. The base is covered with a sticker in the auction pics, so will know more once it arrives.. Although I think this baluster shape likely not Russian in style..

How far into the 20th century was the first use of raised cloisonne twisted type wire on Chinese and Japanese pieces Joey ?

A quick search shows a few 18th century raised wire pieces via Christies, but only one is twisted wire that more matches all but the shoulder of my bottle, and other Russian works.

This first one is twisted wire..

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-unusual-cloisonne-enamel-silver-mounted-burlwood-snuff-bottle-5046831-details.aspx

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-unusual-cloisonne-enamel-decorated-snuff-bottle-1760-1820-4952439-details.aspx
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 08:10:41 am by Bottle Guy » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 08:41:07 am »

George,
   I would date both those bottles later than 1920.
Russian enamel work is not my area of expertise. It could be 19th C. if Russian (and if they did this type of cloisonne work.).
Joey
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 10:47:00 am »

Dear George,
I know nothing about cloisonne, but I think that you may be right about not being it Chinese. The motif doesn't look Chinese style to me.
But, if it is indeed Chinese, then I think that it is highly suspicious because I have never seen a cloisonne in such conditions. Where should them have kept it? Really strange, most probably a purposed acid treatment to make it look old.
Giovanni
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 12:15:37 pm »

All,

This may be a bit off topic, but it is worth mentioning for those that donít know.  Small treasured articles such as snuff bottle have often been buried with their owners when they passed on to the afterlife.  With continued expansion of many cities in China a number of burial locations have been encountered and/or reclaimed (some would say looted) for building construction.  This was particularly prevalent during the construction of the Olympic venue locations in Beijing.   Over the years a number of dealers (ex., Wang & Co.) have acquired oxidized bottles from these old burial sites.  A number of glass and stone snuff bottles have been supposedly been recovered, re-polished, and have found their way onto the open market.   Now if this has occurred with these two materials, I would also expect to find the full range of snuff bottle materials to be in said burial sites.  Glass and stone generally hold up the damp ground oxidizing conditions OK, but the organics and some metals not so good.   I was not kidding when I said Georgeís bottle looked as though it came out of a burial site. 

Charll   
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 12:26:24 pm »

I will have to agree with Charll on this one, some detail on the bottle indicate the bottle is not a modern copy to me.
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 12:41:49 pm »

Dear Charll,
   I don't believe for one minute that those bottles, sold by Dick (Ning) Wang, Hugh Moss, and Robert Hall, are genuine or were dug up in graves. I believe they are ALL FAKE.
   Have you seen the written records of any documented digs which found such bottles? I haven't.
As Clare Chu said to someone who asked her if she had any, "No I do not, and I would not. I believe them to be fakes, but even if they are genuine, they should be the property of the Chinese government and people. How would one describe it on an invoice, "looted from a grave, by repute?!"
   I asked 20+ Chinese at the convention, "If you were to be buried with an artifact, what material would it be?" All answered Jade. None answered glass or cloisonne.
   I ask all ethnic Chinese on the Forum. What material if any, would you like to be buried with, after death, when you are over 120, G-D Willing?
Joey


All,

This may be a bit off topic, but it is worth mentioning for those that donít know.  Small treasured articles such as snuff bottle have often been buried with their owners when they passed on to the afterlife.  With continued expansion of many cities in China a number of burial locations have been encountered and/or reclaimed (some would say looted) for building construction.  This was particularly prevalent during the construction of the Olympic venue locations in Beijing.   Over the years a number of dealers (ex., Wang & Co.) have acquired oxidized bottles from these old burial sites.  A number of glass and stone snuff bottles have been supposedly been recovered, re-polished, and have found their way onto the open market.   Now if this has occurred with these two materials, I would also expect to find the full range of snuff bottle materials to be in said burial sites.  Glass and stone generally hold up the damp ground oxidizing conditions OK, but the organics and some metals not so good.   I was not kidding when I said Georgeís bottle looked as though it came out of a burial site. 

Charll   

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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 03:35:02 pm »

Joey,

Appreciated the opinion, and I'm only restating what I've read and have been told in discussions with a couple of dealers regarding re-polishing of scuffed and oxidized glass snuff bottles.   As you well know we both know what oxidized glass looks like, you in regard to Roman glass and myself finding buried glass bottles from the 1800's at old logging camp and homestead sites.  I would assume the same process would occur with snuff bottles regardless how they came to be buried, whether it be in a grave, by accident, natural disaster, a forgotten or misplaced cache, dropped in a river while crossing, etc.   

Charll   
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 03:40:23 pm »

Dear all,
we have already discussed this a few months ago. It all started when I have raised doubts about the catalog of a dealer who had too many supposedly buried bottles in his catalogs. I don't believe that Authorities start the demolition of town's districts where it is known that there is the possible existence of graves without taking the proper measures and controls.
Giovanni
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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 04:06:13 pm »

Dear all,
it is really hard to believe to me that this bottle is Chinese. What I have learned is that Chinese has strict rules in their art. Everything has a meaning so there is no space for improvisation or fantasy. This bottle do not follows such rules.
1): what is that repeated motif that we see in the red circles? I have never seen it before.
2): Which kind of flower is that in the yellow circle? Flowers are always recognizable in Chinese art, and they are always the same: peony, orchid, chrysanthemum, magnolia, and so on.
3): I may be wrong but I do not remember of having seen separated leaves (or whatever motif) around the neck as we see in the blue circle. Usually the repeated motifs there are closer each other.
Giovanni


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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 05:44:47 pm »

I think have narrowed down those motifs to be Russian..  It's auction nite, so will share some pics in a bit..

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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 07:20:00 pm »

I am finding the one flower that you circled in yellow on some 19th century Russain pieces..

Having a bit of a time with an exaact ID for the flower. Not finding any better description than, flower, floral, and foliate motif.

Going to look further, and also try to ID the other designs you circled Giovanni.. Will probably take me some time...

At this point I will actually be a little surprised if there is not a Russian hallmark on the base..

Here are just a couple of 19th c. examples..



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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 09:05:44 pm »

Hi All, I am following this thread with great interest! Some thought provoking arguments have been put forward.

Giovanni, your critical and detailed analysis was a pleasure to read, and very much appreciated.

George, I think you are on the right track. If you are proved right, I will toast you with a glass of vodka......although I may fore-go smashing the glass into the fireplace* !!! 

[* we don't have many fireplaces in Thailand] Grin

Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 09:28:24 pm »

Yes, Thanks George and Givoanni,

I think you have nailed it. Great job!
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« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 03:48:25 am »

Thank you Tom and Steven.
Dear George, to be precise, I am not interested in knowing what those motif are representing. My meaning was to show that they are not Chinese.
Giovanni
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