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Duhalde Azure Lapis Armenus / Ultramarine

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George
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« on: September 22, 2013, 11:36:07 pm »

I am probably getting in over my head again posting a topic related to porcelain !   Wink

But..., came across Lapis Lazuli in the Chinese Symbolism and Art Motifs book.. After spending some time Googling, one thing led to another, and at this moment, not sure of the relevance towards snuff bottles, but want to post some of what I found.  Maybe the differences between a natural, and synthetic ultramarine colors are usefull for something like dating a bottle ?  I am not sure for example, when the brighter/darker "synthetic" ultramine was first applied to porcelain.     

Learned that lapis lazuli is used in making the blue pigmant called, ultramarine, and probably a source of Duhalde's azure Lapis Armenus, used in the coloring of porcelain.

I do not know entirely who Duhalde is, or why "azure Lapis Armenus" is associated to that name.  I can only find that Duhalde was the author for a book published in 1736 called History of China.

Ultramarine is the deep blue color and a pigment which was originally made by grinding lapis lazuli into a powder which contains a blue cubic mineral called lazurite (the major component in lapis lazuli).

Synthetic ultramarine is a more vivid blue than natural ultramarine
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 12:58:38 am by Bottle Guy » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2013, 02:09:34 am »

Dear George,
with the premise that there is always something new to learn in Chinese porcelain field, I have never heard about recipes including lapislazuli. The responsible for the under glaze blue is cobalt. The finest blue was made with cobalt imported from Persia, especially during the Kangxi reign. Another type of blue, with a strong purple tone, is the so-called Mahomeddan blue which contains manganese. In "Chinese glaze", a sort of Bible on the matter, the Author Nigel Wood does not mention lapislazuli at all.
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Giovanni
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2013, 05:48:28 am »

I was only aware of ground lapis lazuli being the ingredient for ultramarine pigments used primarily in western art (oils and watercolours). I think Giovanni is correct about it not being used in underglazed 'blue & white' porcelain. Could it be that lapis was used for some of the pigments in enamelled porcelain instead?

Tom
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2013, 06:06:34 am »

I believe cobalt was used for the underglaze blue decoration on Chinese porcelains.

Keith
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2013, 06:13:57 am »

I was only aware of ground lapis lazuli being the ingredient for ultramarine pigments used primarily in western art (oils and watercolours). I think Giovanni is correct about it not being used in underglazed 'blue & white' porcelain. Could it be that lapis was used for some of the pigments in enamelled porcelain instead?

Tom

Reading it again from the Chinese Symbolism and Art Motifs book..  

"The blue mineral known by this name is met with in very fine specimens in China, and Central Asia. It furnishes the pigment called ultramarine, and is probably one of the sources of Duhalde's azure Lapis Armenus, used in coloring porcelain."

So I am misunderstanding the part about "coloring porcelain"..  Not meant to refer to the application of decorative blue coloring with brush onto the porcelain item, but rather an ingredient into the porcelain itself ??
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2013, 07:54:45 am »

Dear George,
I think that teh source of your information is wrong. Which book of Chinese symbolism are you talking about? And anyway, I think that to mention what somebody said in the 18th century is much less reliable than Nigel Wood.
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Giovanni
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 01:37:12 pm »

Which book of Chinese symbolism are you talking about?

Here is a copy of the book, Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives , By C.A.S. Williams.

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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2013, 01:44:42 pm »

George,
   I used to use that book a lot for its information on Chinese Art Symbolism. I would suggest that its technical information would be much more suspect.
   Today, like Giovanni, I tend to use my good friend Terese Tse Bartholemew's book "Hidden Meanings in Chinese Art", although I still do access the CAS Williams book as well.
Best,
 Joey
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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 03:43:11 pm »

Dear George,
for the purpose of meanings in Chinese art I use the book of Terese Tse Bartholomew
http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Meanings-Chinese-Terese-Bartholomew/dp/0939117363
I do not know your book, but anyway as Joey too suggest, a book devoted to Symbolism is not the best source for technical issues.
Talking about this, a question arise to my mind: I have no personal experience in firing ceramics, but are we sure that lapislazuli will keep a blue tone after firing? I will not be surprised if not.
Giovanni
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2013, 07:04:02 pm »

Thank you both, and also for the book info via Terese.. I will order that one as soon as possible..
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2013, 09:59:13 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

C.A.S. Williams' book Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives has long been the "bible" for Westerners to understand the meanings behind Chinese art. And it is still being reprinted today, many decades after its first printing, as a respected reference book. Its content cannot go 'out of date'. Terese Tse Bartholemew's book simply reinforces what Williams has to say, and includes more and better illustrated examples.

But you are right, his book concerns symbolism, so it is not the best source for comments on technical issues.

Tom
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:58:08 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

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