Ruby Red from 1700s? (3 bottles!)

[onealexis]

Hello all, thank you for letting me join the forum. I am not a collector, so you'll probably notice immediately I will sound like a noob. Though my boyfriend and I have been incessantly researching snuff bottles for the past 2 days - so, whatever knowledge we could find in 2 days is what we're equipped with... and from that... I don't know... I'm feeling like George here about his ruby red piece... I'm feeling like we may have happened upon a tiny treasure trove of ruby reds!

We have 3 ruby red bottles bought at the same yard sale. See pictures below. I took some pictures with the flash and some without. I'll try to play around with the camera and lighting to see if I can find a way to show you the bubbles and flecks and also tiny surface scratches. Also, I noticed on the plain bottle, that you can see super super fine lines like sanding marks.

Everything I'm seeing online makes me feel like these are from the Qing dynasty, mid 1700s, but again, what do I know?

I would love to hear your thoughts.

BTW, we are hailing from upstate NY. Are any of you near here? I would drive to see someone to show you.

[George]

The tall one in the center is appears to be an overlay... The core clear bottle was dipped in red glass then carved..   

I don't believe any are old, but truly.., I am not an expert with ruby red glass.. Only had one experience with a piece..

My best guess is that these are all 20th century..

Lets see what others say 

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Hello (name??),
welcome to the forum. I agree with George, unfortunately these are modern bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[onealexis]

Hi again! I'm Alexis. :-) sorry about that!

Thanks for looking and the replies. Can you help me understand what makes these new bottles and what are the identifying features of old versus new? Are 20th century bottles also hand sanded and rubbed? I can tell these were, but what else should I look for?

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Alexis,
I am not a big expert but here goes what is wrong in my opinion.
The best one is the left one. But I can see that the the glass is too much thick and the neck and mouth are not finished and shaped as an 18th century bottle should be.
The carving of the other two bottles is of poor quality compared to the carving of an 18th century bottle.
The stoppers and spoon are of the same type and not old, although this can be a alter addition.
It is practically impossible to find three ruby bottles of the 18th century in the same place, unless it is a famous collection and the prices accordingly high.
Let see other comments too.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Steven]

Welcome to the Forum  Alexis!

I share some opinion as George and Giovanni,

I like the left one the best, well finished, also agree with Giovanni that top Rim tells its a newer bottle than 18th. Anyway, those are good start for a new collector, much better quality  than my first bottle.

Steven

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Alexis,
    I haven't been able to open the photos to see them in more detail, but I'm not very tech- capable ( ).
   Thus, I've not been able to comment on the quality of your three bottles. I disagree with Giovanni, because it is very possible to find a small group of quality bottles as you have. I have myself, on occasion.
   I will be in Toronto in early Oct., and if you are in striking distance of Buffalo, we could meet there. There is a fine collection in the Buffalo area.
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Joey,
"Thus, I've not been able to comment on the quality of your three bottles. I disagree with Giovanni, because it is very possible to find a small group of quality bottles as you have.": you first say that you can't comment on the quality if teh bottles, then you say that they are quality bottles. If you think that they are quality bottles, I believe that it is because you have not been able to enlarge them as you said. The reason should be the large size of the pictures, that require a long time to upload if your line is not very fast. You should click on an image and wait a little to see if it will enlarge. Once again I am voting for setting a limit in size and weight of the images, those three pictures take the space of more than 30 images with absolutely the same readability. Soon the forum will need more space.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Alexis,
    I was able to open one after I waited a long time, as Giovanni suggested. Once I did, and got to examine the three bottles, I agree 100% with Giovanni, George and Steven: The bottles are DEFINITELY modern, and not even very good quality. I would also agree with Giovanni re. size of photos.
   
Dear Giovanni,
   What I meant when I said I disagreed with you, was that someone could theoretically have had a small group of very good quality early bottles, which then found their way into the hands of a person who didn't know their value, and who sold them for very little in a yard sale.  I should have realised by now that if you, George and Steven all agree that the bottles in question are modern, you are going to be 99.999% correct. Mea Culpa. 
Joey
   

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Joey,
you are absolutely correct that it can happens. There are high chances, for example, that my collection goes to the flea market if I will not provide about its destination. Nobody in my family has interest on the matter.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[George]

Dear Joey,
you are absolutely correct that it can happens. There are high chances, for example, that my collection goes to the flea market if I will not provide about its destination. Nobody in my family has interest on the matter.
Kind regards
Giovanni

I have done my best to make notes about my bottles, but honestly, I have fears that something like this could happen to mine as well... Absolutely no one in my family have a clue, including my girlfriend..

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Guys,
   There is a simple way to guarantee that your heirs realise the value of the bottles you own: Keep careful and detailed records, with an up to date summary list of all bottles with their  current values, as follows:
#. description                                                   current value:
1. Imperial Guyuexuan enamel on glass                US$20,000
etc.
I guarantee you - if they see such a list, they will make sure not to just give away the bank.
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

It is just what I have in mind dear Joey, and will also add notes to the pieces for which I have a particular affection.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[onealexis]

You guys are great. Thank you so much for the descriptions of 'why'. It was incredibly helpful to me. I may take you up on that offer Joey, so please keep me posted on that trip and it would be fun to see the collection in Buffalo. I may be hooked. I know that I have seen snuff bottles at yard sales in the past (not 3 together), but never realized their value or had an affection until finding these and doing research about these - so, we see now - these 3 little bottles DO have value! They have caused me to want to find more. :-) I am still interested in having someone see the bottles in person. I do know a local appraiser and may take them to him to see what he thinks.

So, to the question about monetary value, if these are 20th century bottles and not valuable, what are they worth?

DO worry about passing on your collections. We've had many deaths in our families recently and I've seen it first hand. I also have hated seeing someone want some possession of someone who passed ONLY due to monetary value. Drives me crazy. Leave them to one of your collector friends - the affection and intrinsic value is likely what matters to you as much as the monetary and likely you'd rather have someone have them that values them for 'all' their values.

I don't know what it's like everywhere else, but yard sailing in upstate NY will cause you to find stupidly valuable antiques at yard sales where people say, 'oh, my parents died and they had all this JUNK in their house and we're just trying to clean it out'. This past weekend at one yard sale I got a Haeger vase for $7.50 worth $80 and the coolest thing - a corn sheller from the late 1800s for $50 which is worth approx. $500... and the comment from the sellers? My sister passed away, she had all sorts of 'stuff' in the house - indeed, there was more at that yard sale than I could fit in my truck if I so desired. Sad.

And as for very valuable, very rare items, Joey is right that at times, you can find things like that (not defending the bottles are rare or old, I am sure you are all correct about these), but even if never belonging to a collector, way way way back when, if someone were to come from oversees or to travel abroad and want to bring a trinket or souvenir back, they would commonly bring a few of the same thing and choose something very small that would be light and easy to take along. I would imagine snuff bottles would fit right into this category. So, that alone did not deter me from believing they 'could' be old, but I loved your assessment of them Giovanni and it really helped me to understand why you don't believe they're old, upon further inspections of other bottles - most particularly, I agree, the glass is so much thicker.

Thank you so much to you all. I will watch your posts and I'll be watching for more snuff bottles at yard sales! I'll keep you posted if I find any little treasures!

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Alexis,
   I realised, reading your last post, that I learned a very important lesson. You are 100% right, the 3 bottles have a value in that they led you to the study of Chinese snuff bottles, and from there, you will get hooked on Chinese art and culture. We all have.
   I'll be in Toronto 6-14.Oct.  How far are you from Buffalo NY?  I think the area is Orchard Park. I will be in touch with the Crane Collection (check it out on the internet - the whole collection is supposed to be online).
   Best,
 Joey

[onealexis]

Oh! YES! The Crane Collection! We did look at so many of those online! They were part of what at first made me believe ours could be old, but then after Giovanni's explanation I looked at the items he felt were the reason they are not old and compared them to the Crane collection's ruby bottles and agree - the carvings are crude and the glass is thick. I would love to see the collection in person. Buffalo is not 'close', it's about 4-5 hours from me, but it's worthy of a road trip.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Alexis,
   I'll contact the Crane collection and  a friend who advises them, and see if it is possible to personally view the collection. I'm in Toronto and available from Mon., 7.Oct. to Sat., 12.Oct. I can meet you in Buffalo and I'll take you both to lunch (there is a Sushi and steak place, Tao, in Orchard Park, that is recommended, and open for lunch), and then to see the Crane Collection (or view before, depending on schedules).
Best,
 Joey

[George]

. I may be hooked. I know that I have seen snuff bottles at yard sales in the past (not 3 together), but never realized their value or had an affection until finding these and doing research about these - so, we see now - these 3 little bottles DO have value! They have caused me to want to find more. :-)

Excellent !   

[rpfstoneman]

the carvings are crude and the glass is thick.

Alexis,

After taking a close look at your photos of the three bottles, I agree with the others they are likely more contemporary.  Given your statement above I would speculate that all three bottles were likely piped onto a blowing rod and ultimately formed by blowing piped glass into a mold.  This is a quite common technique/process in the creation of glass bottles.

Charll

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Charll,
   It looked like the middle one was red on clear. Would that still be the technique for an example like that?
  Joey