Porcelain Dragon Design Bottle Y. F. Yang

[Mandarin]

Here's a blue and white porcelain dragon design bottle that was bought in 1968 from Y. F. Yang's shop in Hong Kong complete with stand. Can anyone tell me anything about it, e.g. how old it might actually be? Thanks!
Vaughan  

[George]

I can not date it for you, but sure want to tell what a nicely blued dragon it is !

Nice bottle, and beautiful spoon as well..   

[Steven]

What a beautiful dragon bottle, really wish I can have a bottle like that.

I am not a expert, but will vote the bottle early- middle 18th according the decroation of the neck.

Steven

[rpfstoneman]

Vaughan,

This is a lovely bottle and one I would cherish to own.  According to John Ault, Chinese Snuff Bottles from the Collection of John Ault, by Robert Kleiner, this type of bottle first was produced during the Xianfeng reign (1851-1862) and continued into the Tongzhi period (1862-1873).  The indicator to the dating is the trefoils suspended dots and the alternating dots between trefoils.  This neck design according to Ault only started showing up after 1850.   Also note the matching dot placement within the top band on which the trefoils are hung.  This appears to be another distinctive design element of the period. 
 
What's more the painting is very crisp and the use of the various shades of cobalt blue adds to the visual effect of the design.    A wonderful bottle and thanks for sharing this one.

Charll

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Vaughn,
   As Charll said, this neck dates it to Xianfeng. If it had just had a single dot between each pair of trefoils, it would have been Daoguang.
  If you are interested in selling it, please let me know.
Best,
   Joey

[Wattana]

I agree with all that has been said. The scales on the dragon are particularly well executed.
The stopper and spoon look like classic Y F Yang handiwork!

Tom

[Mandarin]

Thank you everyone for all your help which is very much appreciated. The bottle size is 80mm high (including stopper), 29mm diameter. I remember the visit to YF Yang in Chungking Arcade with my father to purchase this bottle on a very hot July day in 1968. Joey, at present I am indeed minded to sell this bottle, as you am aware I have had it for a while and porcelain bottles are not really my area of interest, I'm more interested in stone and mineral bottles. Plus I collect other things!

[rpfstoneman]

Vaughn,

It looks like both Joey and I would have an interest in this bottle if you were ever to sell it.  Contact me through me email (provided in the "members" link above) if ever decide to give up this bottle.

Charll

[Steven]

Let us have a fight then. Count me in as well

Just kidding! I don't have a deep pocket as you guys. 

Good luck Joey and Charll.

[Mandarin]

Guys, I really appreciate your interest. I've had quite a bit of interest in this bottle and one firm offer. I have a couple of problems, firstly I don't want to tread on anyone's toes and second I've no idea what to ask for the bottle, as I know nothing about porcelain bottles (or much else according to the wife) so unfortunately that puts you guys in the role of both buyer and seller. Also, I don't know what the forum etiquette is in a situation like this. I did think about putting it up on ebay. I'm completely indecisive on this one....

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Vaughn,
    It's worth at least US$2,000, and possibly more. I will ask YF,  Robert Kleiner and Clare Chu what a Xianfeng B & W with really well painted dragons is worth, and get back to you.
 Then I recommend you do what David Osborne does: 
Post the low/high estimates publicly, and state the lowest price you'll accept.
Give us say 5 days to write you with our bid.
Then Charll, Steven, I and anyone else interested will write you a personal message with a one time highest bid.
And then post the bids publicly, or notify each person who bid, if they got it or not.

 Charll, Steven, et al, does that sound fair to you both as well as to Vaughn?
Would you prefer to get the estimated values of the bottle for Vaughn?
Any other suggestions which will be fair to all concerned?

Joey

[rpfstoneman]

Vaughn,

If you have the ebay experience, presently that could be a good option for a quality bottles such as yours.  Ebay seems to be getting some top prices there lately.  Or another option is to just contact those that are interested through private email and negotiate a price, or go with a top price offered from those that have an interested.  You could just simply work out a price, and/or trade of bottles, with whom ever expressed interest in the bottle first, which should be arranged through private contacts such as phone, private email, or the forum email.  We all respect that you just need to do what's right and easiest for you as collector wishing to part with one or more bottles from their collection.

Charll

[Steven]

I would think either Joey or Charll's suggestion will work perfectly.

I do have a lot of experience on ebay, Charll is right ebay seems getting some top prices for the past two years,  but not always, I still think its kind of risky, it depends how the seller promote the sell, or how many serious collector viewers happen to watch them, and I also think ebay is the best for the middle class snuff bottles, but not the best for the higher end bottles like yours. I was watching the silver bottle you listed on ebay, it didn't do so well, which I thought it can go over the twice of the hammer price. that is why I think its kinda risky there...

I had a few of luck on ebay only because not so many serious collectors bid against me, most recently I got the Qianlong enamel on glass for less than $200.00, which is almost a steal.

If you already has a couple of serious collectors interested in, and they all know the market price very well, I would suggest you go for Joey's suggestion. if Let me guess how much it will fetch on ebay, based on my experience, it will go over $1000.00 mark for sure, but I don't think it will go over $2000.00 since I have not seen many B&w bottle went over $2000.00 mark on ebay for past two years, That is my 2 cents worth.

Steven 

[rpfstoneman]

Let me guess how much it will fetch on ebay, based on my experience, it will go over $1000.00 mark for sure, but I don't think it will go over $2000.00 since I have not seen many B&w bottle went over $2000.00 mark on ebay for past two years, That is my 2 cents worth.  Steven 

This analysis by Steven is 'spot on' and I agree with the above statement.  Charll

[Wattana]

I have been reading the comments on this post with interest. I have very little experience of eBay, but from what I have seen, I think Steven's comment is right - bottles of above average quality do not appear to get the best prices, and it can be risky.

I also like Joey's proposal, following the system used by David Osborne. If Vaughan decides to sell the bottle this way (limited 'public' auction via the forum), that could set a precedent for more sales / trades of this kind on the forum.

Personally, Joey's way is a trend that I would like to see on the forum. There are (according to George) 51 registered forum members. Assuming all are bona fide collectors, I think we all have bottles we would like to sell / trade within a select group of like-minded individuals.

Tom

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Tom

While I agree with all that's been said here on this topic, without more than a core team of say 10 people here, it is hard to justify to keep trading among ourselves, since some of us are more specialized and niche.  Anyway, I have and still am buying bottles from some members here, so I fully support. 

The real bottleneck is how to get the others to participate / share / comment.  Has anyone talked to David Osborne to advertise this Forum to his members?

[George]

I am following along here...

We do have the shop and swap section here, within the public forum..  That should work well if a person has a set price they are asking, as well for possible trades..

Just thinking out loud, but maybe the best way to use Davids auction process, would be to simply show the bottle within the shop and swap section.. Letting everyone know it is up for auction to the highest bidder.. The seller could simply include their own personal email address, or message through the forum,  and collect bids over a decided time frame, and then announce the winners highest bid themselves ? 

Were up to 52 members as of today.. A good percentage of those are not participating... I think about half that number do check in to view the forum, and half again actually log in..

I think Pat has a point in regards to the handful of members who will be trading and selling between themselves.. 

Maybe I have the wrong attitude, but I could really care less about setting a precedent for increased selling of bottles on the forum.. One thing that could happen is the sudden appearance of new members with the sole intent to sell bottles..  That does not really excite me.. 

[Mandarin]

Thanks again to all of you for your ideas and suggestions. I really like Joey's idea to sell 'within the family' so to speak. I'd get a buzz knowing it went to a really good home. If I went this way I'd really want to send some higher resolution photos of the entire bottle and of the original invoice to those participating. It would not sit well with me to sell this bottle on the basis of a couple of photos. Also,I do have ebay experience and it would be relatively easy to put it up on auction there with good photographs and a description based on what I've learned.

I'm mindful that I don't want to be responsible, even a little bit, for people joining the forum for the purpose of selling their bottles. There are pros and cons but I think the last word must respectfully lie with George so perhaps I should go the ebay route, it would be the best I think.
 
Vaughan

[Wattana]

One thing that could happen is the sudden appearance of new members with the sole intent to sell bottles..  That does not really excite me.. 

I understand George's concern, but am still attracted to Joey's suggestion. I wonder if there isn't some way we can 'vet' prospective bottles put up for sale (as opposed to vetting the sellers themselves, which may cause problems!), to ensure the descriptions, price range, images, and so on, meet requirements. Of course, we don't wish to burden George, so maybe a core group of volunteers could do the vetting. Just a suggestion...

[richy88]

Hi Tom

Actually, a simple way is just to restrict such trading activities to only members.

As anyone who join the forum need to have at least 100 posts to be a full member, those who join just to sell probably will not qualify anyway.

Besides, new comers are not even aware about the 100 posts requirement.

Just a thought.

Regards.


Richard

One thing that could happen is the sudden appearance of new members with the sole intent to sell bottles..  That does not really excite me.. 

I understand George's concern, but am still attracted to Joey's suggestion. I wonder if there isn't some way we can 'vet' prospective bottles put up for sale (as opposed to vetting the sellers themselves, which may cause problems!), to ensure the descriptions, price range, images, and so on, meet requirements. Of course, we don't wish to burden George, so maybe a core group of volunteers could do the vetting. Just a suggestion...