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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
August 22, 2017, 11:31:36 pm
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Somebody Post A New Bottle !

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Author Topic: Somebody Post A New Bottle !  (Read 739 times)
George
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« on: June 06, 2013, 06:48:20 pm »

Anyone have something new to share ?

have not seen anything new in a few days, and am going through bottle withdrawals from not seeing something shared ...

Need my bottle fix  Cheesy
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 01:20:25 am »

Ok we can do that.

Double rock crystal bottle of likely Shandong origin, 6cm tall, turquoise stoppers.  The date is 1907 Autumn and painted by Xiao Quan or Xiao Ying (the second character not very legible). Unknown artist to me. Any help appreciated...



* $(KGrHqR,!qgFD-+ZDuKdBRcVvRf3K!~~60_57.JPG (422.51 KB, 892x1173 - viewed 23 times.)

* $(KGrHqV,!rkFE21HJQm1BRcVv1FE-Q~~60_57.JPG (385.1 KB, 1280x960 - viewed 22 times.)

* $(KGrHqZ,!lwF!eTB8pnYBRcVvmc4f!~~60_57.JPG (358.37 KB, 1280x960 - viewed 27 times.)

* $(KGrHqZ,!roFEyC9NwfUBRcVvYLvSg~~60_57.JPG (412.52 KB, 876x1156 - viewed 13 times.)

* $T2eC16F,!)0E9s37FbL2BRcVvtf5)w~~60_57.JPG (358.05 KB, 1280x960 - viewed 21 times.)
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George
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2013, 02:49:36 am »

Ah, now I feel better...

You picked a nice one to share Pat.. Don't believe you have shared any double bottles like this before.. Maybe this is your first ?

Wonderful bottle !

I feel much better now that you shared it !  Wink
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2013, 02:53:35 am »

Thanks George. Glad I got you your kick.

I actually have seven of these, 2 are are unsigned, 4 are by Le San, and this one.  One or two of them are on Bill's site in the double bottles section.  This is the most recent one, the others are 1895-1898.

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2013, 03:00:01 am »


have not seen anything new in a few days, and am going through bottle withdrawals from not seeing something shared ...


Does it have to be a snuff bottle, or would an anti-freeze bottle do?   Grin

By the way, nice double bottle Pat. Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2013, 08:19:21 am »

Very nice bottle, Pat. When you say Shandong, are you meaning the 'school of Bi Rongjiu' or were there other studios operating there at that time?
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2013, 10:49:06 am »

Nice bottle Pat.

I personally think the bottle is unsigned, the script should be '山高水青小景' gao shan shui qing xiao jing, which means the landscape of high mountian and clear water.

the last two characters should be 小景( xiao jing) the little landscape. Ofcoz that is just my 2 cents worth, would love hear the opinion of Richard or Inn bok..

Steven
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2013, 11:34:13 am »

Thanks all..

Steven

Your explanation makes sense.  The only people I know of that painted in these regularly are Bi Rongjiu and Le San. There are a few by the elder Ye and Ma Shao Xuan but not many known. The style is extremely close to the others I have by Le San.

Joey

Yes I meant the Bi school but never found concrete evidence that Le San was from Shandong. Some Chhinese collectors are of the opinion it is one of the pen names of Bi Rong Ju.  Their bottles started appearing the sane time about 1895.
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2013, 06:15:49 pm »

Thank you, Pat. It helps me understand that better.
  I have a double bottle in quartz, painted by Zhou Leyuan, undated but ca. 1885/1886. The two bottles are cylindrical, with raised footrims and thick short cylindrical necks. # C-27 in "Worlds".
Shabbat Shalom,
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2017, 11:38:10 pm »

Hi all

I want to pick up on this post, after I read something in Viviane Jutheau's book (in French) on snuff bottles.  She claimed that Bi Rongjiu was known early on for painting double bottles.  IF that is true, then something weird is going on.  I have NOT YET EVER seen any double bottle signed Bi Rongjiu.  However, I personally own 13 double bottles either signed LeSan or Chang Bai San Ren.  Unfortunately, it may be difficult to find out where she got the info.

This is a further indication to me that we are actually talking about the same artist (Bi Rongjiu) with different pen names.  As I indicated somewhere before numerous credible sources indicate that Bi Rongjiu was the first Shandong painter to learn inside painting.  The first Lesan signed bottles start to appear in  1895 (I have one), and I have another Bi Rongjiu from that year and I can't tell them apart.
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2017, 02:36:36 am »

Dear Pat,

      Viviane Jutheau, Comtesse de Witt , is NOT long deceased! I believe she is alive and well, married to her third [fourth?] husband, Jerome de Witt, and is helping him run "de Witt Watches". In Sept. 2016, she sold her African Art collection for over 5.5 million Euros [!] at Sotheby's in Paris.

      In a little while, I will speak to Gayle Gray Laverlochere, who did some of Viviane's research for her, when Viviane was writing her book. Gayle is a good friend, and should be able to help with the info; or get it from Viviane...

    Best,
Joey
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2017, 03:19:56 am »

Joey

Sorry!  I was obviously (VERY) misinformed.  I will go correct my post right away... ouch.. But yes, I want to get to the bottom of the info.  I have long suspected that Le San and Bi Rongjiu are one and the same person.  Thanks in advance!
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2017, 04:03:15 am »

Dear Pat,
 
      I just spoke to Gayle (it is an hour earlier in Paris from Jerusalem), and she said that Viviane got the statement about Bi Rongjiu from Hugh Moss, but to take it with a grain of salt. The research was quite a bit less 'serious' over 30 years ago.
By the way, check out 'de Witt Watches' of Geneve.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2017, 04:32:49 am »

Hi Joey

Thanks!  I could have guessed that, but just the fact that H.M. also thought along those lines by assuming the double bottles were by Bi Rongjiu is an interesting thought.  There are just way too many similarities and coincidences between those artists.  Lesan could not have developed his skills at the same time and in the same speed as Bi Rongjiu.  I may not ever be able to prove it, but it how I feel.  I have well over 30 bottles combined from the 2 artists. 
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2017, 08:52:43 am »

Dear Pat,
 
      I trust your judgement re. Bi Rongjiu/Lesan.
But what about Xiyuanshanren? Is this also an art name  of Bi Rongjiu?

    I ask because I have 9 bottles under 'Bi Rongjiu' but two unsigned ones are so like a signed Xiyuanshanren example that the late Robert Kleiner sold for US$5,000, that I'd put them under that name. Now, I have moved them to my Bi Rongjiu box, but with a note inside that Xiyuanshanren might be a different person.

    Best,
Joey
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2017, 11:42:36 am »

Hi Joey

Xi Yuanshanren is Xin Lu Qian.

Our resident Detective Steven found him. Thanks again Steven !

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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2017, 03:45:03 pm »

Thank you, Pat.

 So, Steven - I'm assuming that Xin Luqian is Middle period. Is that correct?
And was he painting in Shandong like Bi Rongjiu?  Or in Beijing, like most of the MP artists?
Or?
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2017, 10:49:55 pm »

Hi Joey

He is a middle period Shandong artist and died in his early thirties ..
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2017, 06:01:25 am »

Dear Pat,

      Thank you. Now I have to take him out of the Bi Rongjiu box and find another place for him.
And correct my MPIPSB artists list.
 
       Best,
Joey
   
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