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March 29, 2024, 02:56:30 am
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Pair of Ivory Bottles

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Mandarin
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2013, 05:56:40 am »

Aagh! The mind boggles! I have at least one pre-1947 bottle but I'm not taking any chances in this guilty-before-proven-innocent world. Looks like its the V&A for my bottles when I pop my clogs!

 Grin
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Wattana
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2013, 06:06:12 am »

So, technically one can't even sell a set of billiard balls or a piano with ivory keys in the UK without proof they were made before 1 June 1947....?  
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2013, 06:30:15 am »

Tom L.,
   You'd need to have big balls of an entirely different sort to even start trying to fight the government bureaucracy on ivory in the UK.  Cheesy
   Like I asked in an earlier post, do the police punish rape and murder this harshly?  Shocked

   I found a site from the American Game & Fisheries Dept. describing actual cases and fees: someone importing a late 19th C. German piano with elephant ivory keys into FL had to pay a US$145 fee to have it looked at, since it was brought in to a 'non-approved port for CITES inspections', plus a US$93 fine, since they didn't have the appropriate CITES certificate (which would cost another US$145); so they were allowed to import it for US$383 fines and fees.
   This was of interest personally to me, because of the late Hilde Schoenfeld's experience. She went back to visit her hometown in Germany in 1990 (The first time since she'd left in 1939), and met a childhood friend, whose parents had held her family's 1880s biedermeier style piano when they were refused permission to export it from Nazi Germany.
    The friend returned it to her, and it got stopped in US Customs  in 1990 in NJ. The Customs wanted the antique ivory keys pried out of the piano! Hilde refused, and as far as I know, never got her piano back.
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Wattana
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2013, 09:53:11 pm »

Joey,

Thanks for that insight into the absurd and ridiculous side of legislation. Seems that if Hilde Schoenfeld had imported her piano via Florida, the outcome could have been quite different. 
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2013, 06:50:57 pm »

Ya! Who knew?! But I don't think so. Hilde tried when the law was relatively new, and the enforcement authorities were tougher. This is almost 30 years since the law was written.
Joey
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Wattana
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2013, 10:18:53 am »

Here is another pair of ivory snuff bottles, up for auction in May by Bonhams London...

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20579/lot/235/?search_query=1&division=&passages=True&earliest_first=False&value_data_currency=GBP&value_data_order_spec=%5B%27-value_low%27%5D&back_to_year=2003&date_range=future&main_index=lot&department=&query=snuff%2Bbottle&create_facets=False&value_data_range_display=

I wonder if they have a CITES certificate to prove they are old?
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2013, 12:33:49 pm »

Tom L.,
   My best guess is that those two bottles are 1930-1970 in dating. They COULD be as early as late 19th/early 20th C., but I'd not take that bet. I don't see how they can have CITES certificates, though.
  I honestly don't know how it works. I'd have said Bonham's can't sell ivory. Obviously, they can.
 Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2013, 09:45:23 am »

Joey,
    Clearly there is way around the problem when it comes to selling ivory bottles, but, given the UK law, the legalities of how it's done remain an enigma.
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2013, 10:19:47 am »

Tom L.,
   Through Bonham's, obviously!  Wink Grin
Joey
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 03:55:57 am »

Hello everyone,
I've just had an email from Robert Kleiner stating that it is perfectly legal to sell elephant ivory bottles in the UK. He was referring to my ivory bottles that were all made before 1968. This is interesting! However ebay will still not allow their sale on their website.
Vaughan
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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 10:44:23 am »

Dear Vaughn,
    Then advertise them on eBAY as 'camel bone' (wink, wink, nod, nod), like everyone else.
At least you'll be rid of them.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2013, 12:22:28 pm »

You can list an ivory item on eBay something like this..  Faux "ivory" Chinese Snuff Bottle

I have listed like that in the title and also within the description ( with quote marks ) with no problem, but your right, if we just use the word ivory they will pull the listing..
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2013, 01:35:33 pm »

Vaughn,
   You have your answer, thanks to George. Faux "ivory" it is.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2013, 05:20:00 am »

Thanks Joey, George, I will consider it......
Vaughan
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