Pair of Ivory Bottles

[Mandarin]

Hello everyone, firstly apologies to George for the size of these photos but I need to show the detail. Here's a pair of bottles with clear Schreger lines showing obtuse angles, so I'm pretty sure they are elephant ivory, made I think near the middle of the 20th Century. They have panels and lines inlaid with black (ink?). Any info on these would be gratefully received, but I wish to sell them as a pair and hence my main question is, how to do so without falling foul of any relevant national or international laws?

[George]

Just edit/crop them on your computer before you upload them to the forum..

[Mandarin]

George I'll use the lowest setting (640 X 480) on my camera in future, I'm not very computer savvy! Apologies again.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

    The two bottles are definitely elephant ivory, based on the cross-hatching where the two 'grains' cross, and they are the dates you suggested presumably.

    Because of the complexity and expense of getting CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) certificates, and the fact that the value of the bottles probably wouldn't warrant the time, effort and expense, I don't know how you can.

    Could you sell in the UK, so that you are not crossing international borders with this material?  I don't know the laws in the UK. Are there laws against internal trade in CITES materials as well?

  Shabbat Shalom,
     Joey

[Wattana]

Vaughan and Joey,

I don't believe there are any restrictions on buying and selling ivory items WITHIN the UK, so you should not have a problem selling to a UK buyer. This would apply to most places, except certain states in the USA - insofar as the ivory items are not crossing any international borders. How that works across the EU, which is now supposedly "borderless", I am not sure. Anyway, the UK is not party to the borderless EU agreement.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Tom L.,
   In the USA, there is a concept of "Interstate Commerce", and some of its restrictions are as bad as customs between countries.
   I have friends,  antique dealers from Hawaii, from Nevada and from California, who were at antique shows in Texas. They had bought ivory objects AT the antique shows,  and were then raided by Wildlife & Fisheries people (who have jurisdiction over CITES in the USA), under the argument that, since they had arrived from out of state, they must have illegally transported the ivory INTO the state to sell it, and were therefore contravening Interstate Commerce rules banning transport and sale of ivory (and coral, etc.) across state lines.
   Their explanations that they'd bought the ivory in Texas, and were going to sell it in Texas, fell on deaf ears. These morons didn't seem to know, but even more, didn't seem to care, that antique dealers buy and sell to each other as much as to the general public.

   [Have you heard the joke about the two antique dealers shipwrecked on a desert island? They did very well.]
  
   Joey

[Mandarin]

Ha Ha! Nice one Joey. Many thanks both for the info. Now I just need to figure out how to sell them in the UK (UK eBay I'm sure will not allow it).

Are we still 'on' for the 28th Joey? If so I can PM you my phone no.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Vaughn,
   No, I have to be in Jerusalem to speak at the Armenian Genocide Memorial on the 28th (I just got a reminder today! I'd totally forgotten. ). I will be flying TLV-LHR 29.April or 30.April, and be in Warminster 30.Apr.-05.May.
Jerry L. leaves on 03.May, so we'll see which day suits him. Peter is not able, because he's just lost his father.
  Best,
 Joey

[Wattana]

   In the USA, there is a concept of "Interstate Commerce", and some of its restrictions are as bad as customs between countries.

Joey,

It was your above recollection that I had in mind when I said "except certain states in the USA". I have since heard that California wants to ban ALL buying, selling and trading of ivory within the state, including artifacts that have been in the state for many years. Hence the recent explosion of ivory antiques up for auction in California salerooms.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Tom L.,
   You are 100% correct that so far it is only 'certain states', but since there is so much traffic via CA and TX, two states that are getting 'in on the action' , it seems like it is much more pervasive.
    The Israel Museum just barely 'saved' a prehistoric (Neolithic, 9th Millenium BCE) knife handle in ivory, which was meant to be part of an exhibition of antiquities from the Israel Museum collections in LACMA (LA County Museum of Art), after being on display in DC for 3 months.
  It was returned to Israel, because there was a rumour it would be confiscated if brought with the rest of the stuff to CA!
  And how do they differentiate between elephant ivory and mammoth ivory, in which it is permissible  to trade etc.? Or are they banning that as well?!
  Joey

[Ruthven]

Hi,

It is illegal to sell ivory in the UK unless you can prove it was taken before 1947.
See this article.

http://www.wwf.org.uk/wwf_articles.cfm?unewsid=1648

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Are they as tough on rape and murder I wonder...
Joey

[Wattana]

Thanks Frances,

I haven't lived in the UK since 1992, and wasn't aware of this law, introduced in 1997. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. That could pose a problem for us snuff bottle collectors.

[Mandarin]

Thanks for the ivory ban article. It is sobering reading! Guess I'll be keeping the bottles, which is unfortunate as I have no-one to leave them to when I go to the great snuff house in the sky. These are not the only ones I have; there are about seven of them of different designs and ages of manufacture. One or two are fairly valuable. I wonder what will happen to them? The law is unnecessarily rigid in this area.

[Ruthven]

  And how do they differentiate between elephant ivory and mammoth ivory, in which it is permissible  to trade etc.? Or are they banning that as well?!
  Joey

It seems that these days they are doing DNA testing.

http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Seized-ivory-to-undergo-DNA-tests-20130313


Frances.

[Mandarin]

Scary indeed!

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Vaughn,
   If you have good early bottles in ivory (because I can't believe that 20th C. bottles would have much value), you might consider donating them to a local museum, or to the V & A.
  Joey

[Wattana]

Joey,

If you have good early snuff bottles in ivory, it means they were made prior to 1947, in which case there is no problem selling by public auction. 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Tom L.,
   Doesn't one have to prove they are pre-1947? And get a CITES certificate?
 
 I just downloaded this from 'British Blade':
 
    Ivory and the law...

        Some members appear uncertain about the law surrounding the sale and use of elephant ivory. I hope the following clarifies some issues.

        There are two main bodies governing the trade of ivory.

        CITES - governs international trade.
        DEFRA - governs UK domestic trade.

        The CITES agreement regulates – and in certain cases prohibits – international trade in certain species of plants, animals and their derivatives. There are three basic categories that CITES uses to classify and regulate trade in particular species, known as Appendix I, II and III, with Appendix I species receiving maximum legal protection and Appendix III the lowest level of protection, often confined to merely monitoring trade in those species. Appendix II listed species receive an intermediate level of protection, usually requiring an export permit, and in some cases, an import permit. Such permits will only be issued where the relevant management authority is convinced that the item in question was legally obtained and that its export is not detrimental to the survival of the species.

        Elephant Ivory is an Appendix I species for which all international commercial trade is banned.

        You cannot import any product containing Elephant Ivory without the appropriate import and export certificates. Without the appropriate certificates, goods will be seized and penalties are heavy (up to 7 years in prison and unlimited fines).

        If the items are antique (and you can prove it), then you would need to apply to CITES for a "pre-convention exemption" certificate. In other words, even though the item is over 100 years old, you still need a CITES certificate to import it.

        NOTE: Once an antique item has been re-worked, it LOSES IT'S EXEMPTION!!!

        This means that if the piece of ivory is from a (legal to trade with a certificate) 100 year old tusk, as soon as it's remodeled into a knife part, it is no longer exempted and is treated exactly the same as a fresh piece. Same cannot be traded internationally.

        Also note, you often see knives with elephant ivory advertised on US sites as "pre-ban" ivory. This applies to US domestic trade only, NOT international trade. The ban referred to is a US domestic ban on trade, but they joined the party long after the rest of the world. International trade is governed by CITES and penalties for illegally importing an appendix I species are up to 7 years in prison - pre (US) ban or not.

        To legally import a knife into the UK with elephant ivory on it somewhere, the knife MUST be accompanied by a CITES exemption certificate and the knife itself must be over 100 years old.

        DEFRA governs UK domestic trade and they require elephant ivory products to be manufactured before 1st June 1947 and must carry an "article 10" DEFRA certificate to that effect, to legally trade the item within the UK.
    NOTE: DEFRA are currently refusing all new applications for article 10 exemptions on worked and unworked ivory specimens in all but exceptional circumstances.

        To legally sell a knife inside the UK with elephant ivory on it somewhere, the knife must have been made before 1947 and must have an accompanying DEFRA certificate.

        With regard to traders on Portobello Road (the real one), Camden market, e-Bay or anywhere else, that are offering so called "antique ivory" for sale without a DEFRA certificate, they are selling it illegally.

        Thanks for reading.

   Joey

[Wattana]

Thanks Joey,

All this is quite recent, and new to me. I did not realize, for instance, that the UK regulations are stiffer than CITES. Obviously it won't be long before the USA catches up, and closes their loopholes by federal law, rather than state law, which varies from state to state. No wonder there are so many ivory items appearing in the American auctions.