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Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 09:18:18 pm
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With the forum's help we have this bottle up for sale. take a peek. thank you.

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Author Topic: With the forum's help we have this bottle up for sale. take a peek. thank you.  (Read 1614 times)
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guest223
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« on: March 09, 2013, 12:52:52 pm »

160986566351  Item number:
Qianjiang decorated porcelain snuff bottle painted in Nov 7th-8th of 1887. Thanks for all your
help with this bottle. We just got an offer from China. So that was a good sign. (hopefully)
The fact that Steven spent the time to translate the back of the bottle made the discriptive part informative. Thank you all!.....Steve thank you!
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 11:42:35 pm »

Congratulations Dennis !

Although you got the offer, have you accepted it, or is there something else that is holding up being able to accept the offer ?

I believe Steven has already left for a vacation, so do not be surprised if he does not reply to your post here..



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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 12:52:00 pm »

Dear Dennis,
I did look at the items that you are selling and was frankly shocked by the selling prices that you set. You did post several bottles here asking for evaluation. You always had opinions but never an evaluation. So on which basis are you setting the prices? Not sure on bottles sold at the major Auction houses because your bottles are far from the quality range accepted by them, sorry to say it clearly. If your basis are similar bottles sold elsewhere, perhaps on ebay, I would still be very surprised and would like to see those references.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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guest223
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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 08:14:58 pm »

Tell me what you want to see....and how to show it to you Giovanni
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 02:45:13 am »

I would like to see other bottles of the same category of your ones, sold at the prices that you have set for your ones.
It is a simple thought: if I have no idea of how much is the value of something that I have to sell, I do look for references to figure out a reasonable value. If I had any information here (as you had not information) about the range of value, then I look for similar items to see the price at which they are proposed or sold. It sounds logical to me, otherways, why 8,000 dollars and not 80, or 800,000? For sure your prices are not based on the amount that you have paid for those bottles. I am simply wondering from where you had the inspiration for setting those values.
Giovanni
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guest223
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 09:57:46 pm »

Fair market value (FMV) is an estimate of the market value of a snuff bottle,
 based on what a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured buyer would
probably pay to a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller in the market.
 An estimate of fair market value may be founded either on precedent or extrapolation.
Fair market value differs from the intrinsic value that an individual may place on the
 same asset based on their own preferences and circumstances.

So looking at my snuff bottles, I have to find out which one has value.
I thought offering the bottles at a high price with the option to "Make Offer"
Was a place to start. Love and kisses. dennis
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2013, 04:58:16 pm »

Dear Dennis,
"An estimate of fair market value may be founded either on precedent or extrapolation.": yes, this is just what I asked you, some precedent or extrapolations. Where are them?
Let's made it short. You are not able to provide them, simply because they do not exist, unless you want to use fraudulent references. I said let's made it short and I'll explain why. Your participation in this forum is solely aimed at obtaining information to be included in your sales in order to make objects of very little value appear more desirable. That is a scam. This fact alone mean that you are not "knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller". What idea have you made of the people who participate in this forum? Do you really think that we are all people who have nothing to do but sit on the computer waiting for someone to ask "what is this and how much is the value?" There is plenty of professional appraisers out there that can do that. Many of us instead do spend more time than would normally spend on the computer if they are involved in the description of an object, and they do it only for the pleasure to share knowledge among people that are passionate for the matter. For this reason I am offended by people who think instead to be normal to exploit this availability with the sole purpose of extorting money from other people. I do not want to be involved in this activity and therefore I feel myself qualified to criticize your dishonest behavior. Let's take an example.
Some time ago you posted a bottle in the following thread:
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1384.0.html

I told you there that the main decoration of the bottle was printed and not handmade. And I also explained why that; it was not just an opinion. I challenge you to draw fish scales in the same way by means of a brush. You know it's impossible. Despite this, you have put it on sale this way:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/160987979499?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

You declared that the bottle is hand painted while the only hand decorated details are the decoration around the neck and the reign mark, moreover made in a childlike, poor way.  But even worst, you have used what was a general information on Chenghua marks obtained by Mr. Nilsson, putting it there in a way that can be interpreted as related to the bottle, and this was done intentionally counting on the fact that it is very likely that the potential buyer is a Chinese, who often finds it difficult to understand the exact meaning of English words. You put a high reserve price and when the auction will expire you will put it again on sale at an exaggerated “buy it now” price as you did with the other bottles. It is my right to criticize your behavior because I do not want to be involved in scams.
I speak of scams because you can not say that the following bottle is hand carved and dated to 18th - 19th century, and ask 8,000 dollars for it, when indeed it is probably the poorest copy that I have seen of that type, and very recent :
http://www.ebay.it/itm/160986336913?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Or put on sale at $ 4,500 a bottle that an expert like Joey told you it was worth no more than 100 – 200 dollars:
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1380.msg14500.html#msg14500
Oh, I know very well what people like you do say in his own defense: that is not their fault if a person is so ignorant to buy for 5000 dollars an object that is worth only five. And anyway, if one can spend that money it means that he can afford it, no?
Well, I'll tell you one thing. A couple of years ago at a flea market I approached the counter of a seller where there was a Chinese guy who was examining a bowl. As I approached I saw that the bowl in the hands of he guy was a fake, then I picked up another bowl from the table, I look at the foot and seeing that that too was a fake I put it down and went away. The Chinese guy quickly reached me and asked me why I did immediately put down the bowl. "Because it was a fake," I said. "How do you know that it was a fake? Are you an expert? "" Yes, more or less. " He begged me to go to his house to have a look at his stuffs and tell him my opinion about them. I alleged that I had indeed not much time and I was in the company of another person, but he insisted a lot and offered me to bring me to my home later, so I agreed. The guy is a Bar owner and he lives close to the Bar. He is married and has three children. I know all this because since them we became friends. Well, he had a room full of porcelain, many Ming and Qing dynasties, apparently. But actually only two dishes were Kangxi, all the rest was false. All of them! I asked him how much he had spent on that pile of trash. He told me about 30,000 €, but I think it actually has spent more than that, he was probably ashamed. It was really a painful scene. Because of our friendship, later he told me that he bought the porcelain as an investment for the future of his children. He was not willing to trade them. He threw away all his savings. I'm pretty sure that later he had many problems with his wife because of the fraud they suffered. Is him stupid? Of course, stupid and naive, but nevertheless an honest guy; he certainly has not stolen anything from anybody. Is it right to rob him of his savings?
That's an example of what happens to those who are cheated. Someone will not be in that condition, perhaps someone else even worse.
Best regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2013, 12:35:13 pm »

I asked for help identifying snuff  bottles .   I got the help I needed . I want to sell my snuff bottle collection.

Lets review beloved Giovanni. I sent photos of my small snuff bottle collection to several international auction houses after I saw the results of Bonham’s  snuff bottle sale in Hong Kong  2012.  Julian King Hong Kong    sent my photographs to Ling Shang Bonham’s  San François. Dr. Wang Sotheby’s New York sent me an appraisal based on the photographs  for the lot of ten.  Dec 7th I found the forum .

Your accusations are not warranted .  Your informative and insightful  letter about your mastery of Chinese porcelain and my undeserving residence at the forum seem to reflect the idea that one cannot see something unsavory in someone else unless they see it in themselves first .

Giovanni do you lack empathy ?  Giovanni are you unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others?

Giovanni do you  believe that you are  "special" and unique and can only be understood by,
or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)?

Giovanni .do you have a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with your  expectations?

Giovanni you owe me an apology  and you owe the forum an apology . Your castigating remarks about my character   were  malicious.  In this forum I have found  that  the group dynamic as I understand it ,”I have a need to know , you have the answer ,  how sweet is that idea. 

 .When someone buys a snuff bottle from and  uninformed antique dealer for 10 dollars and knows that the bottle is worth 3,000 dollars is there a moral obligation to share the proceeds of the sale with the antique dealer?  Giovanni your moral high ground is measured at sea level.

I asked for help identifying snuff  bottles .   I got the help I needed . I want to sell my snuff bottle collection!

With loving kindness,
Dennis


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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2013, 03:45:19 pm »

Dear Dennis,
you are a specialist in avoiding to directly answer to awkward questions.
Anyway, to answer to this your message, no, I do not feel myself being a high-status person, but you have to tell me why my moral high ground is measured at sea level. Do you have some fact to evidence that? Instead of free evaluations on myself, it would be better to answer to the facts that I have listed. The example you cited as an attempt to justify your dishonest behavior is a silly one. Nobody will tell to an antiquarian that he is wrong about the price he is asking because, to quote your own words, he should be a “knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller”. It is not exactly the same thing than trying to cheat others with something worth 10 dollars, asking him 6,000 US$ for it. It is a bit different.
Anyway, talking with facts in hands, you listed a poor molded (molded, not hand carved!) bottle on ebay with the number 160982088726 and you had a maximum bid of 43 US$. Then you relisted it with a buy it now price of US$ 8,000 or, in other words, 186 times the bid.
You listed a famille rose flattened flask bottle with the number 160982223243 which had a maximum bid of 25,49 US$. Then you relisted it with a buy it now price of 3,500 US$.
If this is the behavior of a “knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller” I let to you and everyone else to judge, without considering other facts already mentioned and considering that ebay is the best place to sell average and low quality bottles. You will not have a bid of 43 US$ at a major auction house, also because they will not accept your bottles for sale. But I am sure you know this very well.
Regards
Giovanni
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