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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
August 14, 2018, 06:01:15 pm
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Underglazed Blue and Copper Red Designs

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Author Topic: Underglazed Blue and Copper Red Designs  (Read 2795 times)
Steven
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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2015, 10:30:25 pm »

Hi Charll,

A Great looking bottle! And special Mark as well.

If I remembered right, the bottle should come with other two bottles, one is a gorgeous looking dragon bottle.Smiley

Congratulations on the lot, great purchase.

Steven
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George
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2015, 11:53:28 pm »

You find some of the coolest bottles Charll..

Really beautiful, and congratulations !
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2015, 12:26:25 am »

Quote
If I remembered right, the bottle should come with other two bottles, one is a gorgeous looking dragon bottle.

Steven, yes you are correct.  The dragon bottle was the main reason for the purchase. It turned out to be a dragon pillar bottle with a concentric ring base that is very similar to the one Richard recently posted.  Will post the other two bottles once have the time to take some pictures.

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

richy88
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« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2015, 08:44:41 am »

Hi Charll

May I know which auction house is this?

Thanks.


Richard
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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George
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« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2015, 11:48:29 am »

Charll, I am sure you have already considered it, but I have looked and can not find any older ( Daoguang ) bottles with this long neck style.. 

I notice that the raised foot rim has concentric rings.. Kind of strange, and do not know what that means..

Butterflies are a very auspicious motif. It symbolized blessings and happiness, as well as longevity.
A group of butterflies means may you have an accumulation of blessings. Miao Jiahui's painting of butterflies flying in the sky and hovering above the earth ( below ) aptly describes heaven and earth expressing joy. This scene of extravagant joy and rejoicing shows the butterflies flying in pairs (like yours) wich can also stand for joyful encounter.
Many butterflies can have yet another meaning, "may the hundred (all) blessings settle here.


* butterfly.jpg (153.38 KB, 387x619 - viewed 14 times.)
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2015, 05:20:28 pm »

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May I know which auction house is this?

Richard, this was an Ebay purchase from a antique consignor called Lofty; see attached link http://www.lofty.com/.  Type in snuff bottle in Lofty's search box and you'll see all the bottles.

George, thanks for the information.  It will provide additional background when I get around to cataloging the bottle.

Charll 
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Wattana
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« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2015, 08:33:54 pm »

Charll,

I was waiting to see some other comments before making any myself, as porcelain is not an area I am strong in (which reminds me, where is Giovanni?).

The firing of the two underglaze colours is superbly controlled, as you have pointed out already. And the foot / base is quite unusual and interesting, possibly a studio mark. Based on the foregoing, I would have no hesitation dating this bottle to 1850-1900. However, the shape of the neck bothers me slightly. So far, I have only seen this type of narrow elongated waisted neck on modern bottles. So your suggested dating of 1890-1920 may be closer to the mark.

Tom
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Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2015, 04:45:29 am »

Dear Charll,
   
    I have been looking at this bottle since you posted it, and am no closer to a decision whether it is ca.1890-1920, or ca. 1980-2000. The bottle's firing of red and blue has such control, much better than one usually sees from the 19th or early 20th C. 
    People have been known to falsely date the period of their purchases or even just mix up bottles and when and where they were acquired. Unless there is a dated cert. of authenticity with an attached photo, I would date this to the later period.  In the 1970s and 1980s, all Chinese antique shops in Hong Kong produced such certs. I have examples from YF Yang,  King Feng, Peter Li, Yuen Fung, Raymond Li, and others. The style of leaves at the top, which one sees on larger vessels,  I've not seen on snuff bottles, that I can recall.
   But without handling the piece, I'm not sure one way or the other.
Best,
 Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2015, 05:16:58 pm »

Dear Charll,
what a strange bottle. The copper red is particularly well fired, but the white has a strange yellowish tone. It has the same looking of yellowed varnish, but it doesn’t seems that it has been restored. I share what already said by others regarding the shape of the neck, and I think that Joey is right about the decoration on the neck, that is highly unusual. I would also say that the butterflies too are very unusual. I pay great attention to the butterflies because I continue wondering why butterflies are never realistically painted in Chinese art (at least I have never seen one). Said that, I think that I have never seen the butterfly as seen in your bottle. Usually they have long and very thin legs, not so short as we see on your bottle. So I am not sure about dating. I would agree with Joey, although the base looks older.
I did look at the site of your link. The dragon bottle is really superb!! But the description of the lot is funny:
“The third bottle is painted with a mounted horseman and bears a spurious Youngzhen Mark but is not Ming Dynasty, it was created during the Qing Period”. I didn’t know that Yongzheng were a Ming Emperor.Smiley Unless, instead of Yongzheng, they really meant Youngzhen as they has written. If so, who was Young Zhen? Did he later become Old Zhen?Smiley
Seriously speaking now, they are selling a famille verte dish as being genuine Kangxi but it is clearly not, it is a Guangxu dish in Kangxi style IMO.
With this I am not saying that he is not an honest seller, he is just wrong.
Dear Tom and all, please excuse my absence. I am still here, but very busy so I just have a quick look at the site late in the night before to go to sleep. I am busy for many reasons, one of them being that I start to sell some stuffs on ebay and guys, that takes a lot of time! I was not expecting that. I did start to sell something because I have too much things and for fund raising. Anyway yesterday I went to an Antique fair and have found a few bottles that I will share soon.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2016, 10:58:29 pm »


All,

Another recent Cobalt Blue and Copper Red Porcelain Snuff Bottle acquision, and a match to the Seven Butterfly bottle previously posted.

The first bottle came out of a long established collection of a Florida collector and this second matched bottle was found at a recent action in the UK.  When I saw this second bottle I could not help myself in trying to pair them up!!!  Grin

Charll


* Seven Butterfly Pair (A).jpg (235.06 KB, 1066x800 - viewed 29 times.)

* Seven Butterfly Pair (B).jpg (247.55 KB, 1066x800 - viewed 24 times.)

* Seven Butterfly Pair Base.jpg (159.43 KB, 800x600 - viewed 22 times.)
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2016, 06:17:34 am »

So very nice that you were able to match it up..

Congratulations !

A rather unusual pattern on the shoulders below the lingzhi patterned collar that I do not recall ever seeing before.
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« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2016, 11:04:48 pm »

Congratulations Charll,

There are few events in a collector's life as rewarding as bringing together 'old acquaintances' from different corners of the world, such as you have done with these two bottles.

Tom
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Tom
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Wattana
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« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2018, 05:26:23 am »

Dear All,

It has been a while since I posted any bottles on the forum. Apologies for the absence. I have one to share on this thread. Enjoy....

Description:
An underglaze red copper-oxide and blue cobalt-oxide porcelain snuff bottle of cylindrical form, with cylindrical neck, convex lip, a glazed mouth and interior, and a recessed plain glazed base surrounded by a raised circular footrim; painted in flowing copper-red brushstrokes with a scene of a fisherman holding his fishing rod over an expanse of water as he sits on a bank under a willow tree, near a rocky hillside, the neck and base with twinned bands of underglaze cobalt blue. Coral stopper carved in the form of a coiled chilong.

Height: 7.6 cm
Tentative dating: 1820-1880

Additional commentary:
Rustic pictorial scenes executed in loose and simple strokes of the artist's brush, as in the present example, appeal to me. I particularly like the fact that a large area of the 'canvas' has been left blank, the artist resisting the temptation to fill the entire surface. The theme of a lone fisherman in a pastoral setting was a popular one, since it stereotyped the scholar in a idealized existence. As with all the bottles in this thread, controlling the two colours combined required technical skill. Here the underglaze red has fired with particular success, showing good colour and gradation of hue, turning green-grey where it thins out at the tips of the foliage.

Provenance: Hamilton Collection, 2003 (no. 223)


* P119.1a-lo.jpg (88.76 KB, 640x800 - viewed 30 times.)

* P119.1b-lo.jpg (91.16 KB, 640x800 - viewed 28 times.)

* P119.1c-lo.jpg (82.25 KB, 640x800 - viewed 12 times.)

* P119.1d-lo.jpg (76.91 KB, 640x512 - viewed 16 times.)

* P119.1e-lo.jpg (82.49 KB, 640x512 - viewed 24 times.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 05:31:56 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
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albert
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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2018, 08:47:41 am »

Hello wattana,

I am a complete inexperienced in this type of snuff bottles, but I find it very beautiful, besides the stopper is very very beautiful!
We will wait for the opinions of the experts.

Thanks for sharing,
Albert.
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« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2018, 03:39:35 pm »

Dear Tom,
very nice and most important, if I am not wrong, very interesting.
I do not know if what I am seeing is due to the nature of copper red under glaze decoration, which usually is less sharp of the underglaze blue cobalt, or if it is instead due to the painting technique.
It seems to me that the second possibility is the valid one. I am not expert on Chinese painting, but to me here we have a particular painting style, similar to that which we can see on this dish of mine, which has been described as being painted in Jiaomo (dried-ink) style Chinese landscape painting.
It is dated Spring 1905, and signed Wang You Tang, a known artist which is also known as Wang Di.
It is the first time that I see a snuff bottle painted that way. I particularly like also the perfect execution of the base and foot. Very nice, thank you for posting it.
Kind regards
Giovanni


* IMG_1.jpg (77.16 KB, 900x823 - viewed 17 times.)
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Wattana
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« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2018, 11:00:13 pm »

Dear Giovanni and Albert,
Thank you for your comments. The forum has gone very quiet lately!

Dear Giovanni, I always appreciate your opinion when it comes to porcelain, as that is not one of my strong points. The style on my bottle is what I would describe as spontaneous and 'painterly', since I am not familiar with the term 'Jiaomo'. But if the dish you posted is an example of this technique, then I understand. It is a style I have seen often on blue underglaze, but rarely on red underglaze wares.
I am not sure how the artist achieved the graduation of colour on this bottle from red to green-grey, but it looks like the brush strokes on the tips of the grasses are done by finishing each stroke quickly and lightly, depositing relatively little 'ink' at the end. At least, that is how I would expect it to be done on paper or silk.

Regards,
Tom   
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Tom
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« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2018, 09:46:58 am »

Dear Tom,
those color changes in underglaze red are normal, it may change from red to green to brown, depending on factors like temperature and especially the type of kiln atmosphere.
Nice bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2018, 09:40:19 pm »

Dear Tom,

     A superb example, which I wish I had in my own collection.  Roll Eyes Grin
I had meant to comment on it 9 days ago or so, and opened up a window on my computer screen. But dealing with stuff here [in Israel] caused me to 'lose' it. I just found it again.
I also don't recognise the term Giovanni used, but recognise the beauty of the painting.
Congraulations.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2018, 12:55:43 am »

Dear Joey,

Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you saw this bottle on one of your visits. But it was probably like when one tries to 'do' an art gallery in two hours.......50% of the items viewed are quickly forgotten.   Wink 

Best,
Tom 
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« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2018, 04:30:14 am »

Dear Tom,

     I did see it, and I believe I told you about my unfortunate interactions with Harriet Hamilton, who was a prior owner. Great provenance from a person I really loathed.

     Harriet Hamilton was the great granddaughter of Adolph Claus Spreckels, through his son John Spreckels and granddaughter Lillie. Claus Spreckels  [he rarely used his given first name] was nicknamed the 'Maui Sugar King' in the late 1870s & 1880s, after he in effect, controlled major land on Maui and grew sugar there. He originally bought or leased over 40,000 acres, around Spreckelsville on Maui, but through his connections with King David Kalakaua, was able to eventually control much more.

Claus Spreckels was also the one for whom the term 'Sugar Daddy' was coined [he had a number of very young girlfriends late in life, as young as his granddaughters or even great granddaughters].
And he also built the Del Coronado Hotel and the Spreckels Mansion, both in Coronado CA.

     On second thought, better it be in your collection, where you can enjoy it with no negative feelings towards the 'bestower of provenance' [I just made that up Roll Eyes Shocked Wink], than in mine. It would remind me of Harriet Hamilton.

    Actually, I just had a thought - I could own it - as the 'Wattana' Provenance bottle!
With you as the source, I'd only have good thoughts of sharing knowledge and good food, whether made by Nant or in restaurants in Bangkok.

   Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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