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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
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Underglazed Blue and Copper Red Designs

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Author Topic: Underglazed Blue and Copper Red Designs  (Read 2436 times)
georges
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 07:17:48 am »

Giovanni, I'm reading your comment on my way to Italy (Bolzano). Why do you dislake the face of my dragon? Is it not ferocious enough in your eyes? It is true that he looks quite friendly (reminds me of the head of my orange belton English setter....)

Georges


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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 02:42:40 pm »

Dear Georges,
as I said, my reference are dragons painted on bigger porcelain ware, vases, plates etc.
I have never seen a face like the one of your dragon. It is different from the faces tipically seen on ware dating from early 18th century to late 19th century. I believe that you will not find another face like that. It is also out of proportion, the mandible is thicker than the upper part of the face (maxilla, nose, front). The lenght of the mouth is completely out of proportion with that of the whole head. See the picture below, where your dragon is compared with the one on Charll's bottle. The lines are placed on the same points, lip, corner of the mouth, back of the head. The difference is evident.
Actually, at list for what I can see in the only picture that you have posted, the whole dragon is out of proportion. The legs are too much thin compared to the body, They should be more fat. And the curve of the neck too is unusual.
It is probable that pictures of the whole dragon will change my opinion, what I think is based on a single, not complete picture.
BTW I live not far from Switzerland, I live in Piacenza, 60 km south of Milan. Consider to contact me if you will came here around.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Ooops, forgot the picture. Here it is:



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« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 02:56:16 pm by Fiveroosters » Report Spam   Logged

Joey
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 04:41:29 pm »

Dear Giovanni,
    I was flabbergasted by your dissection of Georges' dragon's head, and comparison with Charll's dragon's head.
How do the dragons' heads in my book "Dragon" compare? Are any not up to 'snuff'?
    Personally, I don't like #7, though I know that it is rare and relatively early. I know the dragon is SUPPOSED to look drugged or drunk, but it still doesn't please me. I'm not getting rid of it or anything, but it is NOT my favourite dragon.
 Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 10:08:38 pm »

Giovanni,

Although it is true that you would expect with some pigments that the more dense, or concentrated, would result in a deeper, richer, color.  Apparently not the case with copper red as explained in the ‘link’ I provided in the initial post with this bottle. Here is a quote from the link;

“The trick is to stop after the first reaction. This can be partially achieved by adding extra ingredients to your glaze mixture, an art virtually lost after the Ming dynasty.  For example, in contrast to your expectations, an extremely low concentration of copper in the glaze (i.e. 0.2-0.5%) gives best results (the most bright red color).  Higher concentrations of copper will lead to the formation of Cu in the glaze (the 2nd reaction) and you get brown areas.” 

The provided link from the Gotheburg site gives some great insight as to the difficulty in the use of copper red and what is needed to achieve uniform coloration.   

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2013, 04:06:10 pm »

Dear Joey,
if I were forced to choose one of your dragon bottles I would be in serious difficulty. Each one is over the top.
The number 7 is different from the others because it is not a dragon as we generally know them. It is a qilong, although a bit strange one. The qilong or "water dragon" has that face and a slender body, and it is especially recognized by the bifurcated tail. Your one is a bit odd because generally the qilong has no horn. But for sure a super bottle.
Dear Charll, I understand that, but what I mean is the same that happens for example with the hair of the dragon. I don't know how to say it in English. In Italian we say "sfumatura" a tone that progressively change in density, for example the grey tones that are going from black to white, we say that the black "sfuma" into the white. If you take a single hair of the dragon it starts dense and then the color goes progressively lighter toward the tip. So I suppose that what you have on the scales are just light hints of copper red; it is just a supposition.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2013, 04:53:36 pm »

Dear Giovanni,
    Thank you for your kind words.
    I didn't realise it was a qilong on #7, but I usually LIKE qilongs.
    I had a number of glass snuff bottles, one in royal blue glass and two in dark green glass,  plain front and reverse, but with qilong writhing up the sides, their tails forming the raised footrim. They were considered to date 1750-1830. Possibly Palace Workshops, because of the colour and quality of the glass.
    But the face, and especially the eyes, give me the creeps. Like clowns do!
Shabbat Shalom,
    Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2013, 07:20:57 am »

Your opinion on age, shape, glaze, etc....

Cheers,

Curt


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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2013, 07:24:16 am »

BTW, about this bottle...the dragons are painted overglaze while the blue clouds, and others are underglaze.
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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2013, 08:45:21 am »

Dear Curt,
    The painting is superb! The shape looks 'right'.
   Where I have problems are the colour of the underglaze blue, and the PERFECT gilding on the mouth. Because of those two details, I think it is modern.
   Having said that, I'd buy it as a superb example of a modern underglaze cobalt blue/
overglaze iron red decorated porcelain snuff bottle.
   Is it for sale?
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2013, 08:58:27 am »

Hi Joey, thank you for your comments.

No I am not looking to sell it.  

Question: is it common to have a bottle to have both underglaze blue and overglaze red?

Thanks
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2013, 09:20:53 am »

 Curt, It is rare but not unheard of.
     In my catalogue, "In Search of a Dragon", there are two, both with dragons: #23 with an overglaze iron red dragon (on the reverse; don't ask me why it wasn't shown), scrolling clouds and flame, and underglaze cobalt blue dragon, wave design at base and ruyi-head collar and possibly Imperial;
and #111, an Imperial enamelled Qianlong bottle with iron red facing Imperial dragon and waves and cloudwork, loaned by JeremyL on the Forum.
  Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2013, 09:30:24 am »

Hi Joey,

I will check out these two bottles.  Thanks much.

I bought this bottle in 1999 on ebay from a seller in the US.  I think I spent very little on it.  Anyway, thanks for your opinion on its probable age.

Cheers,

Curt
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Steven
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« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2013, 09:31:46 am »

Hi Curt,

I agree with Joey that its a superbe contemporary bottle!

The reason it can be modern is that the shape of bottle is bit of off in my opinion, for this kind of bottle with very short neck, the mouth should be a little bit wider, almost wide as the bottle itself.

The painting of the dragon and clouds also point to the modern as well, altho they are perfectly painted, might be too perfect...Smiley, also the golden overglze on the mouth is way too good condition.

But, I would say most of collectors would love to have a contemporary like this , which ofcoz including myself.Smiley

Steven
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« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2013, 09:45:31 am »

Hi Steven,

Thanks for sharing your views.  Now you have pointed it out, yes the flared mouth is a bit too small.

Cheers,

Curt

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« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2013, 10:03:11 am »

   Good point, Steven. I'd not noticed before, but now that you point it out...

You know, Guys, this type of nit-picking is exactly like the way Orthodox Jews deal with kosher food, or checking details like the points on the leaves of a closed palm frond, and making sure all the leaves on the two willow branches line up 3 to a line, both used in the  ritual of the Four Species (Lulav and Etrog) during Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles).
   We could all get work as kosher food supervisors!  Grin
Joey
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George
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« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2013, 01:49:23 pm »

Beautiful bottle Curt !
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« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2013, 11:06:45 pm »

Curt,

A superbly crafted bottle. Is that a ruyi fungus on the base? Probably the maker's 'studio' mark.
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Tom
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2013, 03:14:13 am »

Yes it is.
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2013, 03:48:55 am »

It didn't register first time round, that even the base mark is two-colour!
An attention to detail you rarely find on modern examples.
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« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2015, 09:13:09 pm »

Cobalt Blue and Copper Red Porcelain Snuff Bottle – Seven Butterflies

When I first saw this bottle I was overly impressed with the control in the use of the underglaze copper-red and cobalt blue.  The use of each pigment in proximity to each other without breeding over is stunning in comparison to other bottles I've seen with the use of these two pigments in combination.  The underglaze blue and red pigments are fairly true, but each have just a bit of gray undertone. 

Upon receiving the bottle and subsequent close inspection a number of items presented an enigma.  These are:
1)   An unglazed base.  Both the raised foot ring and base of bottle were left unglazed similar to concentric ring based bottles.  Both the unglazed foot rim and bottom base are silky smooth.
2)   The base has a mark in what appears to be unglazed copper-red of what I think is a peony or some other flower.   The resulting effect is like a ‘water mark’ and demonstrates how unglazed pigments appear to have a washed out effect when left unglazed.
3)   The painted lines of the design are crisp and deliberate, and the pigment infills are generally well contained within the lines of the design.   
4)   The wing tails on a number of the red butterflies appear to use a combination brushing of both red and blue pigments to achieve a third, gray, color.   
5)   My initial thought on the dating of this bottle is 1890s to the 1920’s, but I’m now wondering if it could be much earlier.  Daoguang period?

Any confirming thoughts on the quality, theme, and dating of this bottle would be much appreciated.

The bottle is 8.7 cm or 3.5 inches in height without the stopper.   It has an old coral bead for a stopper.  It is said to have been purchased at the Plaza Hotel, New York City, in 1975 and has been in a private collection in Omaha Nebraska since the original purchase.

Thanks for the thoughts and comments, Charll





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« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:33:25 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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