Table laquer (?) bottle with inserted panels

[georges]

sorry, there must be a kind of copy protection with this picture. I'll try again in another way.

Georges

[Tom B.]

I think you are correct.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Tom B. and Georges,
      Are reverse sides showing? Because the scenes don't look the same.

Richard,
    Did you get your example from the Dorotheum in Vienna? That would be very interesting, because it might mean that
 the two bottles were a pair, or both sent to Europe, at any rate.

    this is shaping up as quite a mystery.
Joey

[Tom B.]

Dear Joey,

Take alook at the matching damage.  It is just the poor photography from the book.

Best regards,

Tom B.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Whoops, Tom B.!
   Missed that!
Boy, you are good! The illustration on the left really is bad.
 So they were both in Europe. We know that from about the 1860s there was a craze for Japanese works of art (See: The Hare With Amber Eyes), so the two could have been brought to Europe at any time from 1860 to 1960.
Joey

[richy88]

Hi Georges

You are probably right. I did bought some bottles from Dorotheum many years ago.

This bottle could be from them but I have to check my records to be sure.

May I know the sale date of the page that you attached? I may have the Dorotheum catalogue somewhere to confirm.

Thanks for your detective work!

Regards.


Richard

[georges]

Richard,

the sale in the Dorotheum was on December 1st, 1993. The picture I added is from this catalog.

Mine was bought in Amsterdam in a small antiques shop (not specialized in Asian works of art) in 2006. The vendor told me it was among the belongings of the late grandmother of one of his customers (whatever this may mean)

Georges

[joearp]

Georges and Richard- These bottles are absolutely stunning! You are blessed to have them in your collections.

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Please   keep  this    amazing  thread  going

I am not  into these  kind  of  bottles  but   the   whole   thing  is  SO  excting !

Cheers   Peter

[richy88]

Hi Georges

Thanks for the date.

However, I noted that you mentioned in your first post that it was illustrated in an auction catalogue from Dorotheum dated 1st December, 1973. Are you referring to the same or different catalogue here?

I believe it is 1993 and not 1973 as I have not bought anything from them before 1990.

Thanks for your help.

Regards.


Richard

Richard,

the sale in the Dorotheum was on December 1st, 1993. The picture I added is from this catalog.

Mine was bought in Amsterdam in a small antiques shop (not specialized in Asian works of art) in 2006. The vendor told me it was among the belongings of the late grandmother of one of his customers (whatever this may mean)

Georges

[georges]

Sorry, Richard, it was a typing error and should read 1993. The other date is 1967, the date of publication of Johanna Krug's book on her collection where you bottle is illustrated.

Georges

[georges]

Richard,

isn't the general inspiration of our bottles comparable to the Szekeres lbottle? Any connection?

Georges

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Georges,
    Your bottle and Richard's bottle are obviously from the same workshop; this could well be from that workshop, as well.

    I've not yet had word whether Steven and I can visit the Trammell Crow Museum's Japanese Lacquer snuff bottle collection in Dallas, when I'm there next week (The Japanese snuff bottle group comprises about 37 bottles, as I remember, displayed in the Museum at a Japanese Cultural Centre near Palm Beach FL during our 2011 ICSBS convention), but many are Lacque Burgaute (lacquer inlaid with shell and gold and silver foil), which are NOT from the same workshop.
    Joey
 

[richy88]

Hi Georges

Yes, this bottle should be of Japanese origin and I do see quite a number of them over my years of collection. Hence, they are more common (although equally amazing standard) compared to our examples.

Regards.


Richard

Richard,

isn't the general inspiration of our bottles comparable to the Szekeres lbottle? Any connection?

Georges

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Richard,
  When you say you've seen many of this type in the quality level of the two under discussion, how many do you mean?
Because I've seen that type, but of the quality of your's and Georges', not more than 5-10. Do you mean that 'ball-park' number, or more? And if so, how many would you hazard a guess?
Joey

[richy88]

Hi Joey

Are you referring to the cinnabar lacquer and ivory combination bottle?

Besides the one in the Janos Szekeres collection brought up by Georges, other collections that have similar examples include Denis Low, Joe Grimberg, J & J & the Bloch collection. However, some of them are designed the other way round, instead of an ivory panel surrounded by cinnabar lacquer, it has a lacquer panel enclosed in ivory.

I believe that there are many more other examples.

Regards.


Richard

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Richard,
    So we are discussing about 10-20 bottles in that combination, either Cinnabar with an insert, or Ivory with a cinnabar insert. While that is a nice group, it is still quite a select group.
    It is not a large number of high quality bottles, like IPSBs, where we are talking of a number of hundreds if not a thousand, high quality bottles from all the early and middle period artists.
    At first I thought you were suggesting numbers like the IPSBs.
Regards,
 Joey

[richy88]

Hi Joey

No, of course not.

I am comparing the lacquer/ivory combination bottles as a relative number to the two bottles posted.

Bearing in mind that they may be produce only by one (or a few) workshops in Japan (assuming the origin), they cannot be mass produced.

Besides, there is also a limited amount of raw material that can be used (lacquer, ivory & others).

Just my conclusion.

Regards.


Richard

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Richard,
   I would accept your conclusion, but I misunderstood what you meant by 'a lot'.
Now, I understand. Thank you for clearing that up.
Shabbat Shalom,
   Joey