About This Forum

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 09:46:47 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

Things are always changing....

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Things are always changing....  (Read 305 times)
0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.
Peter Bentley 彭达理
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2600



« on: January 14, 2013, 03:00:36 pm »

When  I started  seriously  collecting  VMIPBs  in about   2008  my  ceiling  for  any bottle was  RMB4,000  =   about  US$500   at the  exchange  rate  of that time:  US$1 =  RMB8.   For  that price  I   bought  some  of the  most   stupendous  bottles  in my collection. Usually  I  paid  only  RMB1,500  - 2,000, and even as  low  as  RMB1,000  direct  from artists ( =  US$ 125) .

Nowadays  I have to  pay  RMB 15,000 - 20,000 ( US$ 2,500  -3,000: the   current  exchange  rate  is  about  US$1  = RMB 6.25 )  to  get  really top  class  bottles  directly  from  artists, and there's  nothing  worth  buying  at  less than  US$1,000,  whether  via trusted   dealers after  discount, or  direct  from artists.

Some  recent  members  of the   Forum  have  bemoaned this  fact : that  prices  have   risen  so high.  So they  go to  ebay and  buy what they  can  for their  budget of  US$100-300. But  I fear that what they  buy  in the   VMIPB  field  is often  "junk".  ( That's not to  say  there  are  no  bargains  out there on e-bay,  also in the   antique  field.  But  it's a  hit and miss  thing  and  I would  never  dare to   verify  anything  on ebay unless  sold  by a  trusted  collector)

I  sympathise  with  such  new  members  of the  Forum. Prices  are  indeed  high and   keep  increasing.

You may think this  is a  sudden recent  trend  in the past 4  years  - a   sudden general  "step jump"  increase  in prices  by  200 - 400%. But  in fact  it's  part of a  much  longer trend.

In the   early  2000's  one  could  buy  la  crème  de la  crème of   VMIPBs   in Hengshui  for  only  US$100  and  prime   Wang Xisan  bottles  were  selling for  as little  as  US$1,000  (nowadays   prime  Wang Xisan  bottles   sell for  minimum  US$15,000 and  as  high as  US$25,000) .

Last  year  I   got a   first hand  viewing of   what is  probably   the  world's  finest  collection of  WXS   IPBs,  and  I was  astounded  when I asked the  prices the  collector  actually paid for  many  of the bottles in the   early  2000's. That  collector  had  real foresight !

So  the current top  artists  can  now  ask  premium  prices  for  their  bottles  :  minimum   RMB10,000 , and  usually     RMB15,000.

( I have  heard  of   some   extreme  cases  of asking  RMB150,000 ++ , but  I would  say that  is   exploitation and  price-rigging within the  internal   China  market where  it has become   fashionable to   gift  VMIPBs to  clients  so  the  "higher the  price  the   greater  the  meaning of the   gift"  :  such  pricing is   artificial, and  what I have  seen  of the  actual  quality  of the  works  vs  the  prices  is  just  bubble  economics )

But  there  are   still   affordable  bargains   Grin

Every time  I  go to  Hengshui  I   go  to the  Wang Xisan   museum/shop  and   pick a   few  of the   best  Chinese  landscape bottles  I see  in  the  RMB 300 -500  price   range, painted  by  top  up-coming  WXS Academy  students. I  collect  almost  exclusively  Chinese  landscape  painting bottles so I now  trust  my  judgement  in this  very narrow   area  of  IPB  painting.  In almost every  case  I  find that the   student  has  a  couple  of  years   later   won a  prize  in  some   competition and  is  on his  way to  going  out  solo, in which case  his  bottles   will  immediately   jump  from   RMB 200 - 300  to  RMB 2,000 -3,000.   And maybe one  day he  will  become a great master  ...  maybe.... that's a  long, hard   road.

I have a  theory  that  as   the  world's population   expands  homes  will   get smaller,  but  people's  passion for  collecting   art  will  increase. Therefore   collecting  will  move to  smaller and  smaller things  =  miniatures.

In the  average small home  ( at least  in the  East)  one can  hang  maximum  10   full-size  canvas  paintings.  But a   well-lit  display cabinet  can  hold 100  - 500  IPBs. There is  no  school of  miniature  canvas-type  paintings  - as far as  I know.  But there  is a  well-established   school of  miniature  IPBs ,  with a   100-year   history  and  all the  "mystique"   of  "oriental  China"  to  back it  up .

My prediction is  therefore that   IPBs  is   THE  most  collectable  "painting" art-form of the future, and that  prices   will  continue to   rise for a  long time to  come.

In 2008 it really  hurt me  when  I  forked  out  RMB4K  for a  super- prime  bottle. I thought : "what on earth  am I  doing  to  spend  do much? " .  But  now   when  I look  at  every  one  of those  bottles  which I purchased  at that time  I  bless  my   heart that  I did  buy  them.   Every  one is  worth   5 -10 x  what I paid, because  I  only  paid  RMB4K  for  la  crème  de la  crème, and that kind of quality  only  comes   during a very  short  period  of  an  artist's life, unless he  gets a  second  wind  late  in life.

What's my message ?  Simply this : follow  your  heart  and your  instinct, not your  wallet .... and  buy direct  with  provenance  (whether direct from  artists or trusted dealers)

Cheers
Peter  
Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 03:24:20 pm »

Peter,
  I just read your posting, and agree 100% with what you wrote, with one exception.
I paid US$2,000 in 1981 for a top Wang Xisan, and they were at that price from at least 1980. In 2000, the LOWEST I paid for a good Wang Xisan would have been US$4,000, except for a dealer I knew, who wanted to get rid of some and sold them for US$2,000 each, which was what he'd paid for them 20 years earlier! So he 'sat' on those three bottles (US$6,000!) for 20 years, with no interest, no profit, and then sold them at his original cost. Not a smart dealer, granted, but quite an extra-ordinary situation. I am not complaining (though I carefully had them checked by another expert before I paid him!).
  I find it hard to believe you were offered top quality Wang Xisans for US$1,000 each in the early 2000s. You might have thought they were. And I have met enough collectors who have lowered the price they claimed they'd paid, to look like smarter collectors than they were in reality. So someone who told you he paid US$1,000 in 2000-2005, really paid US$4,000-6,000.
  Incidentally, I  recently wanted to see what my 13 Wang Xisans were worth. I was quoted a payment of US$7,000 - 10,000 each, NOT US$15,000 - 25,000 each. 
  But your basic premise is sound, and I endorse your message 110% ! Not that it needs my endorsement...
Best, Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Peter Bentley 彭达理
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2600



« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 03:34:57 pm »

Hi  Joey

 Smiley

I never   said  that  "I" was  offered   prime  WXS  bottles  in the   early  2000's.I was   not even  collecting  at that  time !             (But  I  wish that  I  was  collecting  at that  time !!)

What  I  said was that  prime   WXS  bottles   "were  selling  at  as  little  as  US$1K",  but  maybe I should  have  written   more   correctly  :  "US$2 - 4K"   . Anyway,  peanuts  by  today's   standards , which  was  my  main  point.

The    recent   WXS  bottle   which Richard   posted   was   worth   well over  US$15K ( ask  Richard  for  the  actual price)  -  and it   was  well  worth the  price  he  paid.  I  only  wish I could  have  afforded  to buy it  myself

One of the  best  WXS   landscapes  I ever  saw

Cheers
Peter
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 03:49:11 pm »

Peter,
   Reread the last line in my previous post...
 I agree with you about Richard's Wang Xisan landscape. I'd be tempted by that one, even at over US$15,000.
I wish that dealer who sold me three for US$6,000 had had a landscape like that ... (sigh)
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal