About This Forum

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 07:56:51 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

JUST FOR YOUR EVALUATION ....

Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
Author Topic: JUST FOR YOUR EVALUATION ....  (Read 3214 times)
0 Members and 96 Guests are viewing this topic.
guest223
Guest
« on: January 12, 2013, 12:49:15 pm »

I WOULD LIKE YOU EVALUATION OF THIS BOTTLE....THANK YOU..D


* 037.JPG (167.54 KB, 480x640 - viewed 39 times.)

* porc1.jpg (148.75 KB, 480x640 - viewed 36 times.)

* porc3.jpg (160.72 KB, 480x640 - viewed 54 times.)

* 040.JPG (145.9 KB, 640x480 - viewed 35 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11283


« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 01:08:06 pm »

Dennis,
  Based on the bottle's shape and enamelling, I would guess ca. 1880-1935.
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
Global Moderator / Forum Detective
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4101



« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 01:23:18 pm »

Nice bottle, Dennis,

Joey was right about the date, actually to be more specific, the bottle was date in Ding Hai based on the script, which can be 1887 and 1947.

I personally think the 1887 is more reasonable, we can see a lot of later Qing( Guang xu) and early republic JIng dezhen porcelain wares signed Made in Zhushan. one side painted one side with calligraphy.

Zhiyong

Report Spam   Logged

Tom B.
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 640



« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 03:59:21 pm »

Old speedy Steven beat me to it again!  Wink

I was writing a post about the date being Ding Hai Winter of 1947 +/- 60 years and that since it is qianjiang style decoration it should be 1887.  Qianjiang was a style of decoration that was first used on porcelain around 1855 - 60, by porcelain artists including some from the Imperial Kiln who were displaced from Jingdezhen by the Taiping revolution. It became very popular from 1885 - 1910 but was out of style by circa 1920 - 1923. In China it is known a "qianjiang cai" or qianjiang colors/enamels.  Since they weren't in Jingdezhen, they experimented with innovations of the type of enamels they used to make them thinner more like watercolors.  The biggest change was to mix some lead with the black enamel, so that it could be applied in one coat instead of two time consuming steps. Up until then it was first paint a design in plain black, then let it dry, and then a coat of clear lead over it carefully following the same line. It wasn’t very practical for inspired calligraphy.

There are a couple of things that bother me about this bottle; the fully glazed footrim, the pristine condition, and the base mark.   Every genuine 19th century porcelain snuff bottle that I have seen has an unglazed footrim. Every Qianjiang decorated snuff bottle that I know has at least some rubbing due to use and most of them are in relatively poor condition.  The thinly applied enamels and the less protected black are very susceptible to wear. These were not made for collectors; they were personalized snuff bottles made for the literati class.  Imagine a pristine Zhou Leyuan inside painted snuff bottle that was never used turning up on the market today without a good provenance, who would believe it?

Up until the 1990's there weren't any copies of Qianjiang decorated porcelain made since around 1920 when the style was modernized. That style of decoration has become very sought after and expensive over the last decade, so fakes are regularly turning up on the market.  

Best regards,

Tom B.

Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

Tom B.
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 640



« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 04:01:22 pm »

Oh and why does the mark bother me? Well it is a nicely hand painted mark done in what is known as 'clotting red' enamel.  It looks about as right as any circa 1887 mark I have seen.  Now if an artist could paint such a perfect fake using the correct enamels, why would he choose a bottle like this?  I would love to make a hands-on examination of this one.

Best regards,

Tom B.
Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

Tom B.
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 640



« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2013, 04:14:06 pm »

Here is a similar decoration on a small circa 1890 qianjiang dish in my collection.


* 13.01.12 Qianjiang dish1.jpg (164.41 KB, 932x886 - viewed 25 times.)

* 13.01.12 Qianjiang dish2.jpg (137.69 KB, 907x883 - viewed 27 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

guest223
Guest
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2013, 04:37:26 pm »

HOLY CRAP!!!!!.....IT IS SO HARD TO FATHOM THE KNOWLEDGE BASE OF THIS FORUM...IT'S TRULY MIND BLOWING .....WOW.....AND IAM SURE WRITTEN  WITHOUT SPELL CHECK..(GEORGE DO WE HAVE SPELL CK?)........THANK YOU ALL ....THIS IS REALLY COOL.....D
Report Spam   Logged
Tom B.
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 640



« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2013, 04:44:31 pm »

Hi Dennis,

Is that snuff bottle in your collection?  If so, would you give us any background information about when & where you acquired it.

Best regards,

Tom B.

P.S.  _ I am with you on the spell checker, I usually compose the message in WORD and then paste it ion here.   Smiley
Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

Pat - 查尚杰
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3461


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2013, 07:44:56 pm »

Nice bottle Dennis

Tom B.

What are the dimensions on your dish? Iit is nice... Is it a condiment or snuff dish? I collect snuff dishes as well, just have not gotten around to sharing.
Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 6133



« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2013, 07:38:58 am »


HOLY CRAP!!!!!.....IT IS SO HARD TO FATHOM THE KNOWLEDGE BASE OF THIS FORUM...IT'S TRULY MIND BLOWING .....WOW


Dennis,

I couldn't have phrased it better myself! I have also learned so much from this forum in the 7 months since joining.
Report Spam   Logged

Collecting since 1971

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11283


« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2013, 12:00:27 pm »

Dennis,
   I'm collecting almost 43 years, and I can't believe all I've learned from the Forum in the almost a year that I'm on.
I'd never before heard of 'Qiangjiang' porcelain before the first posting on the subject; and between Tom B., Steven and Pat (anyone I missed?), it seems like I could now write a doctoral thesis on the subject!
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Tom B.
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 640



« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 09:52:56 am »

HOLY CRAP!!!!!.....IT IS SO HARD TO FATHOM THE KNOWLEDGE BASE OF THIS FORUM...IT'S TRULY MIND BLOWING .....WOW.....AND IAM SURE WRITTEN  WITHOUT SPELL CHECK..(GEORGE DO WE HAVE SPELL CK?)........THANK YOU ALL ....THIS IS REALLY COOL.....D

I agree and that is the beauty of this forum; it truly is a give and take.  Learning at quantum speed, I have quadrupled my knowledge of snuff bottles since I became a member.  The most amazing thing is learning things that you didn’t even know that you didn’t know.   I am not going to thank each of you individually, since I would undoubtedly miss some of you.  I am thankful and obliging to all of you including the “newbies” who post interesting bottles for discussion, the fairly knowledgeable who post more advanced questions, and the “old” pros who bring it all together.   Thanks.

Best regards,

Tom B.
Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

Tom B.
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 640



« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2013, 10:00:54 am »

Dear Pat,

You are right about my little dish, it is probably for condiments. The length of each side is circa 9.5 cm.  I wish it was a snuff dish, but we can't always have everything we want.   Smiley

Please do post your snuff dishes when you have the time, that is another subject that I want to learn more about.

Best regards,

Tom B.
Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11283


« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 12:34:36 pm »

Oddly enough, I never had a huge collection of snuff dishes, even though they were very cheap  from 1978 to 1990 (from US$10 for an ivory or plain white nephrite example, to US$100 for the fancier types; obviously, 18th C. Imperial enamel on copper or gold, were much dearer even then; my enamel on copper is NOT Imperial, sadly  Cheesy) .
   At one time I had about 7 or 8 ivory examples, and the ones illustrated in my 1987 catalogue, and a few white nephrite jade examples.
   I now have a pre-April, 1767 green Jadeite snuff dish, dredged from the Chao Phraya  River by John Ault, a generous gift from him in Dec. 1999 (I can't believe I've not seen John and Penny in 13 years!). I also have a blue and white porcelain with a dragon, a gift from Flo Weiss of Chicago. I think that is it. I was an idiot  to allow the blue & white porcelain snuff dish from the Bob Stevens collection, on p.56 of my 1987 catalogue, to slip through my fingers. Oh well, live and learn,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Pat - 查尚杰
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3461


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2013, 06:31:00 pm »

The snuff dishes hardly come up for sale, and frankly there were much fewer of them to go around to begin with.  The ones made from agate and jade are starting to go through the roof.  In due time will share my collection. 
Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 6133



« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 11:09:52 pm »


The most amazing thing is learning things that you didn’t even know that you didn’t know.   



Dear Tom B.,

Another quotable quote!

Tom L. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 08:58:33 pm by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Collecting since 1971

guest223
Guest
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2013, 06:14:29 pm »

Hi Dennis,

Is that snuff bottle in your collection?  If so, would you give us any background information about when & where you acquired it. YES ITS IN MY COLLECTION.
I BOUGHT THIS SNUFF BOTTLE FROM MABLE LESLIE, ALONG WITH THE STONE SCULPTURE I POSTED OF FU DE ZHENG SHEN . AND A SCROLL PAINTED BY JOHNSON SU-SING CHOW, A WELL KNOWN CALLIGRAPHER, PAINTER AND PROFESSOR OF CALLIGRAPHY IN VANCOUVER, B. C. ( STILL ALIVE IN HIS 90’S)…..WHO MABLE LESLIE STUDIED UNDER IN THE 50'S. HER HUSBAND ROBERT WAS A CHEMICAL ENGINEER WHO WORKED IN JAPAN FOR YEARS, AND WHEN HE RETIRED SHE COMMISSIONED JOHNSON SU-SING CHOW TO PAINT A RETIREMENT GIFT FOR HER HUSBAND THAT SIGNIFIED NEW BEGINNINGS. I BOUGHT THE THREE ITEMS AT THERE ESTATE SALE IN WATSONVILLE, CALIF. 1985 

 WHEN THEY WERE MOVING TO A ASSISTED LIVING FACILITY IN WATSONVILLE, SHE CALLED ME TO SAY SHE HAD A RUG AND A FEW OTHER ITEMS FOR SALE SO I BOUGHT THE RUG AND ANOTHER SNUFF BOTTLE….WHICH IS THE ONE YOU ARE ASKING ABOUT. BECAUSE OF THE TIME THEY HAD SPENT IN JAPAN I THOUGHT IT WAS JAPANESE. THE CLOISONNE BOTTLE WAS ALSO HERS.

I HOPE THIS HELPS.

DENNIS
Best regards,

Tom B.

P.S.  _ I am with you on the spell checker, I usually compose the message in WORD and then paste it ion here.   Smiley
         YES ITS IN MY COLLECTION.
Report Spam   Logged
Tom B.
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 640



« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2013, 11:38:54 pm »

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for the additional information about when and where you bought this beautiful snuff bottle.  That clears up any doubts about the age for me - 1887 it is.  It is just one of those very rare examples of a snuff bottle that was hardly used.   If you ever decide to part with it, let me know.

Best regards,

Tom B. 
Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

guest223
Guest
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2013, 01:58:31 pm »

THANK YOU TOM ....FOR ALL YOUR HELP
Report Spam   Logged
Tom B.
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 640



« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2013, 02:10:49 pm »

You are most welcome Dennis.

Steven were able to translate the mark and/or last (left) cloumn of the inscription?  Would really appreciate you help as I would like the information for my personal archive of Qianjiang porcelain.

Best regards,

Tom B.
Report Spam   Logged

Best regards,

Tom B.

Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal