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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
May 26, 2018, 03:17:53 am
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Blue & White Porcelain Bottles

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Author Topic: Blue & White Porcelain Bottles  (Read 2943 times)
Wattana
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« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2014, 09:12:24 pm »


  Is the mark shown as genuine, A or B?


Dear Joey,
    The title below each image says which is which (top one is 'genuine').  If I recall, this one was copied from the Gotenburg website, or some such similar source.

I take 'genuine' to mean no more than that it appears on porcelain ware of the corresponding reign. That does NOT necessarily imply it is imperial. Am I missing something?

Tom
 
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Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2014, 04:06:42 am »

Dear Tom,
   There are porcelain wares, made during a specific reign, and with the correct reign mark of that reign, produced by private kilns in Jingdezhen. They are genuine vis a vis the period. I called this 'A', in that post.
   Then there are wares produced by the Imperial Kilns in Jingdezhen, with marks that are genuine in period, but also genuine Imperial pieces. I  called this 'B' in that post.
   I was trying to find out if it was 'A' or 'B'. I hope this enlightens you on my previous query.
We can all do with enlightenment...  Wink   Cheesy
Best,
  Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Wattana
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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2014, 04:17:12 am »

Thanks for today's enlightenment Joey.
OK, the penny's dropped.  (In point of fact I didn't even register your 'A' and 'B' in the message, since you had placed them as suffixes rather than prefixes to the two alternatives being promulgated.)   Cheesy

So, to get back to your query, I do not know the answer, but assume the top picture to show type 'A', as the quality of calligraphy appears quite 'cavalier'.

Tom 
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Tom
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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2014, 06:12:09 am »

Dear Joey and Tom,
Joey is right about the two type of marks and I agree with him that the first six characters mark seen in the post above must have been written by the calligrapher of some private kiln. I am not expert on marks, but it is evident that that one is quite sloppy. So not Imperial and probably even not of the period.
As for the second mark being Imperial, I donít know. At least for Kangxi marks, Kaishu type written marks with only four characters does not exist except for Impaerial ware on which the mark is surrounded by a square double frame. All four characters kaishu Kangxi mark, without the squared frame, are fake. I am not totally sure, but I think that this is valid for Yongzheng and Qianlong too.
Unless this is not valid for snuff bottles, which seems a world apart, in my opinion that four character mark is not of the period too.
A good reference site is the Marks page of Michael Vermeer. All the marks shown there are from period pieces:
http://www.teadust.com/edu/marks/QingMarks.htm
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2014, 07:17:53 am »

Dear Giovanni,
   Thank you for your input. While the larger vessels might seem "a world apart", what about the smaller ones, like water droppers, very small vases, brush washers, etc. ?
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2014, 01:02:31 pm »

Dear Joey,
I think it is the same, I don't remember of having seen a four characters mark on a water pot for example. But snuff bottles are much smaller than the object that you mention.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Wattana
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« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2014, 09:25:40 pm »


I agree with him that the first six characters mark seen in the post above must have been written by the calligrapher of some private kiln. I am not expert on marks, but it is evident that that one is quite sloppy. So not Imperial and probably even not of the period.

As for the second mark being Imperial, I donít know.


Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for your comments. Just to clear up a point: the FIRST (six-character) mark shown in Reply #58 is from a reliable source (Gotenburg or similar), given as "genuine example of the period". The SECOND (four-character) mark is from a 20th century snuff bottle.

It is interesting that you find marks on snuff bottles to be different from those seen on larger porcelain items. I find that a little puzzling, but I am sure there is a good reason for it.

Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2015, 03:02:56 pm »

Hi all,
Here are four B&W snuff bottles I bought together in Beijing around year 2000.  The dealer said they dated to about 1850 except the all blue one which he said was earlier.  The two on the right are gourd shaped bottles which is what really caught my eye.  I had the stoppers made then in Beijing, they are not good,  bottles came without stoppers. The nicest one (second from right) has repaired neck.  Any idea of the age?
Steve Carroll


* B&W Ching snuff bottles.JPG (69.17 KB, 591x395 - viewed 25 times.)
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SteveC
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« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2015, 03:10:27 pm »

Dear Charll, Tom, Lamlam, et al,
    I understood that the motif of dragon and tiger symbolised yin and yang guardians, and was meant to be a sign of protection.  It is a positive symbol, not a negative.  One would hardly put a negative symbol on a snuff bottle, whether meant as a personal possession or as a gift.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

龙争虎斗 is a popular saying,  "dragon and tiger fighting",  we have friends two daughters one is a dragon one a tiger who are always competing since they were kids, so you could give such a bottle to such a couple, or a husband and wife, with both having very strong characters.  Not negative and could be used in many ways and meanings.
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Joey
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« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2015, 04:31:06 pm »

Dear Steve,

       You will need to post each bottle individually, and better shots of each bottle, front, reverse, mouth, and foot, if you'd like us to try and help you with them.

       I'm sorry, but it is impossible to judge from the photo you posted.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2015, 05:59:06 pm »

Nice bottles Steve..

Thanks for sharing them !

If you do wish to verify what the dealer told you, then yes, more pics as Joey suggested.
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2015, 06:39:07 pm »

Quote
龙争虎斗 is a popular saying,  "dragon and tiger fighting",  we have friends two daughters one is a dragon one a tiger who are always competing since they were kids, so you could give such a bottle to such a couple, or a husband and wife, with both having very strong characters.  Not negative and could be used in many ways and meanings.

Steve, 

Thanks for the additional insight on the 'Dragon and Tiger' themed bottle.  I'm currently at the San Francisco airport waiting to board a flight to attend the International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society Convention in Chicago for the week. 

Welcome to the Forum,  Charll   
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2015, 09:10:05 pm »

Hi Steve,

Welcome to the Forum.

Those bottles look interesting, but as Joey suggest that its really hard to judge based on the image you have. More pics from each sides of bottles will be appreciated.

Steven

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SteveC
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« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2015, 01:23:10 pm »

This bottle is 6 cm high.  The main body ,white glaze portion, is not a pure white, it has a kind of white with undertones of light green.  The body has rib dividers between segments. Could this be Dao Guang or earlier?
Steve


* IMG_5923.JPG (59.51 KB, 448x448 - viewed 7 times.)

* IMG_5924.JPG (65.17 KB, 448x448 - viewed 7 times.)

* IMG_5926.JPG (69.78 KB, 448x448 - viewed 4 times.)
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SteveC
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« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2015, 01:51:15 pm »

All blue, floral pattern is carved, 2 piece construction, seam line is evident on image 5941 and can be seen on inside. Bottle has a bit of tilt to it. Cruder workmanship.  Is this older? That is what Beijing dealer said.


* IMG_5928.JPG (132.81 KB, 640x640 - viewed 7 times.)

* IMG_5929.JPG (78.35 KB, 499x435 - viewed 7 times.)

* IMG_5930.JPG (144.67 KB, 640x640 - viewed 5 times.)

* IMG_5941.JPG (166.7 KB, 640x640 - viewed 3 times.)
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SteveC
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« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2015, 01:58:27 pm »

Gourd shaped B&W, 7 cm high, three gourds and two butterflies.  I love gourd or odd shaped bottles.  Is this Daoguang or even earlier?
Steve


* IMG_5935.JPG (78.52 KB, 387x639 - viewed 7 times.)

* IMG_5936.JPG (77.48 KB, 409x628 - viewed 4 times.)

* IMG_5937 (1).JPG (91.31 KB, 450x622 - viewed 4 times.)

* IMG_5938.JPG (83.26 KB, 447x592 - viewed 4 times.)

* IMG_5939.JPG (85.37 KB, 460x574 - viewed 4 times.)

* IMG_5940.JPG (90.88 KB, 508x584 - viewed 7 times.)
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SteveC
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« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2015, 02:06:06 pm »

6.5 cm, gourd shape body, one butterfly carved and painted, gourd feet not glazed, old button stopper top I had made in BJ.  Seems of same era as earlier pieces.
Steve


* IMG_5931.JPG (73.75 KB, 433x628 - viewed 5 times.)

* IMG_5932.JPG (63.23 KB, 422x484 - viewed 5 times.)

* IMG_5934 (1).JPG (121.32 KB, 640x640 - viewed 4 times.)
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« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2015, 02:36:19 pm »

Ming late Wanli B&W pair of melon gourd shaped jars 17 cm high, painted with hanging melons and vines/leaves (lacking the normal squirrels crawling on vines).  Crudeness indicates late Wanli period work.  Being a pair is quite rare, in this case one is darker than the other. I have a collection of melon shaped jars I got in the mid 1990s in Beijing, this shape jar was most popular during Wanli period (a few were made in Jia Jing).  You can see why I like the sympathetic gourd shaped snuff bottles.  Gourd shape adds a lot of character to a jar. 
Steve C


* Ming Wanli B&W Melon gourd pair.JPG (174.99 KB, 640x640 - viewed 8 times.)

* Ming Wanli melon jar base.JPG (128.16 KB, 640x640 - viewed 7 times.)
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« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2015, 02:42:18 pm »

I forgot to mention the jar base has the classic greenish/blue tinged white glaze on base, a classic Ming B&W marker.  I saw about 50 of these jars and only one was a fake at the time in 1995.  I think the melon shape was too hard to fake, and prices for non-imperial jars were not high then, so there was no money in it.   
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« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2015, 09:04:28 pm »

I am a bit perplexed by these, so I will have to wait and see what the expert porcelain guys and gals think. I like melon shaped ones very much, more so the very last one posted.  I am not so sure these are 19th..



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