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Blue & White Porcelain Bottles

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Author Topic: Blue & White Porcelain Bottles  (Read 2952 times)
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2013, 02:23:49 am »

Dear Tom,
if I have correctly understood your question:
real porcelain (hard paste) is fired at over 1300 degrees celsius. Soft paste is fired at lower temperature, about 1100-1200dgrees. under the point of view of the glaze, both hard and soft paste are fired once. To be more specific, under-glaze decorated items must then be fired once at that temperature. The problem in that case is when both cobalt blue and red copper are present together, being the red much more sensitive to the temperature and kiln atmosphere, and that is the reason why successfully fird underglaze red and blue are more rare.
All the over-glaze enamels are fired at much lower temperature, about 800 degress. That means that all over-glaze items are fired at least twice. In some cases, more than twice depending on the type of enamels.
Giovanni
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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 03:01:41 am »

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for your answer. However, that still does not explain why soft paste glazes 'crackle', which I think Charll's description was attempting to do.

Confused in Bangkok...
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 08:45:05 am »

    Dr. Steve Little, presently Chinese Arts curator at LACMA (Los Angeles County Museum of Art), located near the La Brea Tar Pits (you can see dinosaurs' last resting place as well as great Arts holdings!); formerly Asian Arts Curator at HAA (Honolulu Academy of Arts; now Honolulu Museum of Arts); and then Pritzker curator of Asian Arts, Chicago Art Institute; is known as an expert in Asian Arts, especially Chinese.
    His explanation to me, was that 'soft paste porcelain' is 100% kaolin (china) clay, and the clay and glaze expand and contract differently, so that causes the cracks, and hence, the crackle. He said 'hard paste porcelain' was 90 % kaolin clay and 10% Petuntse (a calcium carbonate compound) which caused the clay body NOT to expand and contract,  stopping this reaction.
    This explanation is different than Charll's. I don't know which is correct.

Joey
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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 12:27:52 pm »

All,

Iím still trying to answer these questions myself.  When looking at this issue you need to make the distinction between 1) the body (hard or soft paste porcelain, i.e., the clay mixture of the body as Joey points outs), 2) the over glaze mixture, and 3) how the over glaze reacts to with the body when fired.  Yes, my understanding is hard past porcelain (the unfired clay base) is decorated, glazed, and then fired once.  Additional over glazing decorating would require one or more additional firings (ex., over glaze iron red enamel that is then gilded with gold would require two additional firings which the same process as I remember my mother doing in her years of ceramics).  All these firings at different temperatures as Giovanni points out.

Now, to the question of soft paste.  Is it fired once or twice in the initial forming of the glazed item?  I donít know for sure.  Will have to get back to my notes and reference sources unless someone else here knows.  The answer could be both process would work depending on the glaze mixture and how it reacts with the unfired or fire body. 

Charll
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 12:30:24 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2013, 12:48:39 am »

A new porcelain bottle just acquired.  Any speculation on the age of this blue and white bottle?

Blue & White Porcelain Snuff Bottle:
Rounded rectangular form with a tapering base, blue and white hard paste porcelain bottle. A scene of two fishermen facing each other over a watery landscape. One fisherman on land sitting at the waterís edge with a pole laying alongside on the ground and another fisherman in a sampan emerging from behind a rock formation.  Raise unglazed foot rim and glazed base with no mark.  Height 7 cm without stopper.  Coral bead stopper with green stone collar and old ivory spoon. Cork is a thin cork veneer coiled around the stem of the spoon.  Came out of a Rhode Island estate.   Thanks for any insight and comments, Charll


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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2013, 01:38:06 am »

Dear Charll,
your bottle is a clear example of how it is difficult to date them by a no expert of snuff bottles. Being you expert also on porcelain, I think that you know very well that the type and style of decoration, the smooth paste and the yellowish border of the glaze on the base, if seen by an expert on porcelain, would leading him to point toward Kangxi, which is not possible for what I know and because the border on the collar is typical of Qianlong. I am saying this only for pointing out how difficult is the dating of snuff bottles for a no expert like myself.
Dear Tom, I have seen that I didn't answer to your question "However, that still does not explain why soft paste glazes 'crackle'...". I believe that we have already discussed this in another thread, it is matter of different shrinking ratio, intentionally achieved by means of different recipes.
Giovanni
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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2013, 01:43:38 am »

I can only comment that it is a lovely bottle Charll... !
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2013, 02:14:32 am »

Giovanni and all,

Well I'm no porcelain expert, but I do know a little about porcelain snuff bottles. Quoting from Joey's catalog, bottle 60, page 89 of "In Search of a Dragon", according to the analysis by John Ault, the trefoil band around the neck without dots is the earliest form (as early a Qianlong), although it was used into the nineteenth century as well.  So the age of this bottle could range from the late 1700's to the earlier 1900's.  I'm just trying to see if we can narrow it down a bit for I really don't know.  That's why I appreciate the opinions of fellow bottle collectors and particularly those that collect porcelains, like Giovanni.  Giovanni nailed some of the key indicators and issues on dating, and as he indicated in the snuff bottle world it often adds to the confusion. 

Charll
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2013, 06:31:01 am »

Charll,
    An attractive bottle - I really like the theme. I have little knowledge of porcelain bottles other than what I pick up from reading books and catalogue descriptions (which are often misleading!). John Ault and some of Robert Kleiner's books discuss blue & white bottles at some length, as I am sure you are aware. I am sorry I cannot add anything that has not already been said there.

Giovanni,
    Thanks for your reply to my earlier post from January!

Tom
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« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2013, 11:30:51 am »

Dear Charll,
   A real beauty. Congratulations!
   Second, I must correct a small error on your part. The bottle could date from the late 18th C. (Late 1700s), to the early 19th C. (Early 1800s, NOT 1900s). I would have thought a  40 year range good enough, but I will tell you, based on my bottles, I would say 1780-1800. But I'm not Robert Kleiner, from the point of dating ability, sadly...
Best,
Joey

Charll, after looking at it a lot, I would even go as early as ca.1770-1800.
Joey
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« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2013, 11:43:52 am »

Wow dear Charll, congratulations! I am glad that Joey confirmed that we can apply more or less the same rules of the porcelain. Your bottle reallly has the feeling of an 18th century porcelain.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2013, 11:35:04 pm »

Wonderful bottle Charll,

I actually placed a  low bid on it, but the pictures ware not so well, so I could not go higher than you.Smiley

So glad that you won it and with a good price.

Steven

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« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2013, 01:53:09 pm »

Stunning Bottle Charll!!! I purchased one that reminds me of your beauty from Kleiner last May.  Glad this one ended up with you and know you will enjoy it very much.   We are all so glad you shared the photo with us!  Jo
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« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2013, 02:57:38 pm »

Dear Charll,
    Your stopper on this bottle has an original cork. That thin 'cork veneer' wrapped around the base of the spoon was how all old bottles were stoppered. Many of them have crumbled over the years, but yours looks quite good from the photo.
     Giovanni has tried to replicate it.
Happy New Year 2014 Everyone!
Joey
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« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2013, 05:13:57 pm »

Dear Joey,
I have a further new about replicating the correct cork assembly, will post everything as I will take some pictures.
Wishing a great New Year to all the members,
Giovanni
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« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2013, 05:54:54 pm »

Happy New Year to everyone, and may we all share wonderful 2014 bottle collecting together for yet another year !!
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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2013, 06:29:31 am »

Happy New Year to all on the Forum !!

Only around 4 hours to go in Thailand !
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« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2013, 06:41:23 am »

And ten hours and an half here in Italy!
Giovanni
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« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2013, 09:09:28 am »

Here in Jerusalem, my party starts at 19:00, and we are going to celebrate New Year's in the Seychelle Islands - it is the closest non-hostile state East of us, and two hours ahead of Israel. Jerusalemites like to get to bed relatively early, so we can 'raise a glass' at 22:00, and by 23:00 everyone will be off home.
  Best of 2014 to all on the Forum,
Joey

  I was wrong - by 22:30 I didn't have any guests left, and by 23:30 the staff had left. So I got to chill out watching "Monk", one of my favourite shows, followed by "NCIS" another.
A GREAT 2014 to All!
Joey
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« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2013, 11:06:24 pm »

happy New Year to all!!  And happy collecting.... 
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Best Regards

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