reticulated snuff bottle

[joearp]

Hey guys want your opinion on this new bottle.  Do you think it is old and of good quality? I value your opinion.  Much Thanks

[Steven]

Dear Joe,

It looks like a very good later 18th caved porcelain bottle to me based on the pics,  you might attach some pics of base rim and mouth for other experts to ID for you.

I am just pretend that I know porcelain well , will let the real experts chip in.

Anyway, its a very lovely bottle I love to have.

Cheers!

Steven

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Jo,
 1. You need to photograph it on a solid background; the bottle and the material clash.
2. The photos are too small, or blow up way too much.
Joey

[joearp]

Thanks  I will get some better photos on a solid background so you can see it better.  Appreciate your help.  Jo

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

My pleasure. I want to do the best I can to help you.
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Joe,
I second what said by others. The pictures are out of focus and, most important, too big. Please resize them at about 800 pixels otherways one can not have an idea of what is looking to. It is especially important a good picture of the base.
Giovanni

[joearp]

thanks I will do that.  I appreciate your input and help.  I think you may be Italian, We love Italy, What part of the country are you from?  Hope i am not too bold in asking!!! If so ignore my comment.Glad there are snuff bottle lovers all over this beautiful world!

[Tom B.]

Hello Jo,

I agree with the others that the background is distracting.   I was able to right click the file name below the small thumbnail and open it in a picture viewing program.  That allowed me to see the whole image and regulate its size.  It is good enough for a preliminary assessment of your SB. 

With the Bajixiang or “Eight Auspicious Buddhist Symbols” decoration, it is a rather rare example of this genre.  Reticulated porcelain SB's were first made a during the very late Qianlong period and have been made ever since.  The early ones are ususally given a date of circa 1790-1820 when unmarked.  Since they would have all been made in the Imperial Kiln during that time, they will have the best enamels and modeling.  Yours looks to be an early example surely made in the Imperial Kiln.  The modeling is very detailed and complicated. The enamels are of high quality. Unfortunately it should have a flared top rim, but it has been ground down and possibly at the foot also. 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Tom,
  I can't see it in the thumbnail, and Jo hasn't yet re-organised it.
  From your ability to view it, is the wear on the bottle, except for the mouth rim and foot, consistent with a 1780-1830 dating? It looked to me as if there was NO wear on the front or back of the bottle, which would lead me to believe it was modern. But honestly, I can't tell - on the thumbnail, the cloth distracts too much; enlarged, I can't get a handle visually.
Joey

[joearp]

Thanks everyone for your help so far.  I took some more photos,with a white background this morning, but they came out a bit fuzzy, so I am not going to upload them now.  I will redo later today and forward better photos.  Jo

[Steven]

Let me see if I can help you here, actually the pic is not bad taken except the background.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Jo,
  A much better photo! I can see all the detail.  I still can't decide on the wear issue.
Good Luck,
Merry Christmas,
Joey

[Tom B.]

Hi Joey,

I guess that Steven's image will give you a better idea of Jo's SB.  I cut out a couple of images to show the waer on the high points which is extensive and the chipped area on the top rim.  This bottle would have had a dramatically flared top rim.

I am also posting a photo showing a snuff bottle of mine next to one in the Victoria & Albert Museum that has been ground at the top rim and chipped on the foot. They are common ailments of these early reticulated SB's

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

I see genuine wear on your bottle and on the V & A's bottle. I'm sorry, I don't see it on Jo's bottle.
The damage at top and bottom could have been done under the argument that NO-ONE would damage a new bottle, even though a genuine, though damaged bottle is worth more cash than a perfect modern one.
 Jo, What is the provenance on your bottle?
Joey

[Tom B.]

Sorry to disagree with you Joey, but they don't make copies with modeling this good – not yet anyway.  If they could, you would have seen a few perfect examples floating around in second tier auctions and offered by some of the typical suspects.  Even IM Chait hasn't had anything like this during the last 5 years - maybe never.  If you look at the red canopy in the second photo I posted, you can see the extensive wear.  It is supposed to be solid red with no white showing at all.  The same goes for the blue pistils on the other photo.  Certain things will kill a value and no one will purposely damage a top rim this badly; it was just a tragic mishap.

If Jo posts some clear images of the foot and top rim, we should be able to agree on this.

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Joe,
yes I am from this poor Country, Italy. I leave in Piacenza, 60 km South from Milan. I said poor Country because this land is actually in one of the worst periods of its story due to the shame of the politics that we have.
They completely destroyed our culture. It will take a long time to recover from this.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Tom B.,
   No need to apologise; you are seeing details I'm not getting. I would trust your judgement before my own, because I hate having to make these decisions without handling the bottle; and you have more expertise in Asian ceramics.
   So I'll bow to your superior judgement. In a way, I'm happy, because, based on my understanding, I would have had to tell Jo the bottle was modern; now I can agree that it is late 18th/early 19th, but damaged.
   I would personally restore it with gold lacquer (Robert Kleiner in London has someone who can do it). I know Westerners like to have objects looking pristine, but I prefer the educated Asian collectors' way: to flaunt the repair, in effect, because the object is so superb.
Joey

[joearp]

Thanks everyone, I have just gotten some better pictures.  I will upload them shortly.  I am excited about the bottle even with its flaws.   Being an "understated type of girl" I love Joey's idea of contacting Kleiner about getting the needed repairs done to the bottle.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Jo,
  I look forward to seeing the upgraded photos, and recommend you contact Robert Kleiner. Ask him to have it restored for you to original shape (of the neck and base), but using gold lacquer repair rather than trying to make it look pristine with traditional Western porcelain repair.
 Best,
 Joey

[joearp]

I will do that.  Just uploaded a few new photos modified my original posting photos.  I just received descriptions from Kleiner on a couple of bottles I purchased at the Convention.  It will be educational to get his help on this bottle. He has been a pleasure to work with and I am comfortable with his suggestions.  I am learning all lot from all of you!!  Much Thanks ALL!!!!!   Jo