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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


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Two pebbles

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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2012, 07:09:27 pm »

Giovanni,

There is some speculation as to what your second green-black bottle (if glass) is imitating.  I live in a area with a large number of different types of metamorphic rock.  One of these rock types that I'm quite fond in using as landscape material (even with it's asbestos content) is serpentine.  When I saw your second bottle, I immediately concluded it was a serpentine material which can look exactly like your bottle.

Source (Mineral references and on-line search):    

Serpentine's structure is composed of layers of silicate tetrahedrons linked into sheets.  Between the silicate layers are layers of Mg(OH)2.  These Mg(OH)2 layers are found in the mineral brucite and are called brucite layers.  How the brucite layers stack with the silicate layers is the main reason for the multiple polymorphs. The stacking is not perfect and has the effect of bending the layers.  In most serpentines, the silicate layers and brucite layers are more mixed and produce convoluted sheets.  In the asbestos varieties the brucite layers and silicate layers bend into tubes that produce the fibers.  (This is the structural effect that is demonstrate in your bottle as I understand it)

Serpentine can be an attractive green, forest green, to a black green stone that takes a nice polish and is suitable for carving.  It has been used as a substitute for jade and is sometimes difficult to distinguish from jade, a testament to the beauty of finer serpentine material.

Non-fibrous serpentine is not a cancer concern.  Asbestos serpentines (i.e., fibrous) should be kept in closed clear containers, but makes an attractive specimen.  Sometimes with a golden color as the name chrysotile, another name for white asbestos, in Greek means golden fibers.

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2012, 07:45:29 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

Here is a very similar bottle on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261135386802?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

glass imitating white jade, the condition is not that good as yours, but it could be great to have all three together.Smiley

Steven
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Wattana
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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2012, 10:10:15 pm »


J & J Collection had a pair of pebble bottles imitating jade, quite similar to yours, except that the combo was a white and russet pebble 'jade' and a 'quartz' with inclusions, and they were in a fitted wood box with actual cutout forms to hold the two bottles, and laid out like yin and yang in the square box.


Dear Giovanni,

Now that Joey has informed us that 'pairs' of glass pebbles bottles are in known collections, it removes my concern about yours appearing to be from the same workshop. Every indication is that they are old, and I would tend to agree with Joey's dating, too. In fact, placed together yours make a VERY GOOD example of yin and yang. That may well be the reason they have been kept together for so many years.

Tom
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2012, 02:25:47 am »

You guys have made my day.
Dear Joey, my first 18th century bottles then? Wow, that is a great gift from you!
Dear Charll, it is really a pity that I can't take pictures of the inside. Last night I become crazy in trying to do that. I am sure you would not have the slightest doubt about the glass material if you see the inside. The only other possibility is that it is made by carved stone and then the inside has been covered with a layer of glass, but really I believe that it makes no sense. Why that? The inside is not visible unless special equipments.
Dear Steven, it would be fantastic to add that bottle! I have saved it in my watching items and will try to get it.
Dear Tom, a great input, I had not thought about the yin and yang, you are right!
To all: you are a great crowd, I am so happy to be here.
Giovanni
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2012, 02:49:57 am »

Giovanni, and all..

This has been an especially interesting topic..

It has given me an entirely new perspective on the pebble shaped bottles.  I will always be looking at them a lot closer and with more interest..

Thanks all...  Smiley

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Wattana
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« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2012, 02:58:35 am »


When I saw your second bottle, I immediately concluded it was a serpentine material which can look exactly like your bottle.


Charll,

I think you are absolutely right. I had a look at 'serpentine' on Google images. One particular variety is almost the same as Giovanni's glass pebble. Just can't imagine how they achieved that effect in glass. It is masterful, to say the least.

Tom
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« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2012, 04:29:11 am »

Sorry dear Charll, I forgot to thank you for identifying the type of stone that the bottle is imitating. It is very good to know that it is imitating a real stone one. Thank you!
Giovanni
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2012, 08:31:08 am »

Dear Giovanni,
    It is great to have you with us, as well. You have challenged us, and made us think more (always a good thing!), and with your knowledge of Asian ceramics, coupled with Tom B.'s in the same field, we have two sources of serious info in that area, just as Walter and Steven contribute to our knowledge of Chinese language, calligraphy and painting, and George and Charll to our knowledge of lapidary materials and techniques, and Peter, Pat and myself on Inside Painted, and Tom, Tom B, and myself, on snuff bottle 'lore', and Richard on the literature.
  We have a great group of people sharing knowledge and learning together. Together we are more than the sum of the parts.
  Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2012, 10:15:58 am »

it would be fantastic to add that bottle! I have saved it in my watching items and will try to get it.


Dear Giovanni,

Just for your info, I have been watching this lot when I first time saw it, it was list once, without any bid, I guess not so many people know its value, you have a good chance to get it with the start price, but you better ask the seller about the chips on the mouth, since the seller mentioned the chips on month also extend to the body a little bit, can't tell much from the picture, you might ask for some additional pics for it.

Good luck!!

Steven
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2012, 11:21:28 am »

The mouth looks badly damaged from what I could see in the photo, but again, it might be the exaggeration of the photo.
The question is, Giovanni, is it as good as the two you already have?
By the way, do you have stoppers for the two pebble bottles? Short ( 10 - 15 mm. long) 'stems' of coral would make nice stoppers.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2012, 03:03:18 pm »

Dear Joey and Steven,
thank you for your advise. I have a source here for corals and other similar materials, will see in the near future.
Dear Joey it is good to know the "specialization" of our members. Will remember that.
Giovanni
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2012, 04:14:59 pm »

Dear Giovanni,
    Yes we each have areas in which we are more knowledgeable, but never forget that it is the teamwork, all of us each contributing his expertise, that makes  the whole greater than just the sum of the parts.
    Sharing knowledge is a Jewish 'thing'. So is tolerance of difference. They are why Israel is so successful. From us, those two traits went into Western culture, and contributed to the rise of the West.
    From 650 to 1350, they were also part of  Islamic culture, again from us. Then, the Moslems turned away from sharing knowledge and tolerance, and started trying to hoard knowledge and stifle difference. They are still trying.
   When I was studying Arabic, and would sit in my Antiques & Antiquities shop in the Old City with my business partner and best friend Khalil, copying out my Arabic lessons, the neighbours, all Arabs,  would look at my written Arabic, and laugh at it, saying that it looked like the writing of a 5 yr old. I asked if it wasn't legible enough. They would say that it was TOO legible. ANYONE could read it, and thus I would let others know my knowledge, while they would keep theirs hidden from me.  I said then, that if Arabic and Islamic culture didn't share knowledge, they would atrophy. That was why Israel was so strong - we share knowledge, and thus strengthen and energise it.
    Same thing with this group; we cross-educate, and thus cross-fertilise knowledge.
Shabbat Shalom,
  Joey
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« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2012, 10:18:23 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

Here is another your pebble twin here, wondering how much it gonna fetch:)

there is a quite few of high quality bottles on sell on the auction house, the estimated price is very low, I bet it will attract a lot of bids.

http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/flacon-tabatiere-en-verre-imitant-la-pierre-24-u-1c9ccaab0a

Steven
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« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2012, 03:33:06 am »

Dear Steven,
thank you. Quite interesting, it really looks the same type!
Giovanni
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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2012, 05:45:31 am »

Dear Giovanni,
   It looks identical to yours, and the stopper looks like a very fine old stopper. That is a good sign, though not conclusive, of course.
Joey
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« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2014, 03:18:51 am »

Dear all,
I have found another glass bottle of the same type of the one imitating serpentine stone, although the imitation of stone is not so fine.
This bottle is 6 cm high, with evident wear all around.  The pictures are a bit over exposed in order to show the details, in reality the bottle is darker. The mouth is a bit concave.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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* IMG_6.jpg (57.62 KB, 900x543 - viewed 19 times.)
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« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2014, 04:01:00 am »

I like it !

They really had to move that glass in a lot of different directions to get so many beautiful swirls ! 

It does not look like serpentine imitation.. Not sure exactly what type, but maybe more a banded type of agate.
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« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2014, 05:29:02 am »

Very nice bottle Giovanni!   
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Best Regards

Pat
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« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2014, 10:06:43 am »

Dear Giovanni,
    I agree with Pat. it is very nice!
Joey
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« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2014, 10:14:30 am »

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for sharing this beautiful bottle, the formation of the bands is just wonderful !

Inn Bok
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