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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 15, 2018, 05:13:16 pm
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A flambé glazed bottle

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Author Topic: A flambé glazed bottle  (Read 878 times)
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« on: October 13, 2012, 03:53:40 pm »

Dear all,
I have this, 9cm high. It does not belong from the old collection as the bottles that I did post recently. It is not clear if it is a small vase or a snuff bottle. The lower edge of the glaze has been ground, as usually happens on 19th century flambé glazed vases. It is a pity that in doing that they also did ground partially the foot, so the real foot and the border of the glaze on the base has gone. The neck is straight which seems ok for inserting the cork.
I have the book "Snuff bottles from China - The Victoria and Albert Museum Collection" by Helen White, ISBN 1-870076-10-9
In that bought I have found the small vase that you can see in the fourth picture, with the caption seen in the fifth picture. You can see that mouth is missed, it has been filed down.
As you can read in the text, the Author too think that it was a small vase possibly converted into snuff bottle. The fact is that it is in the snuff bottles collection of the museum. In theory my one has even more possibility of being a snuff bottle, since it is smaller than that one, 9 cm against a 10 cm filed down piece.
By the way in my opinion it doesn’t looks odd within the other bottles that I have posted here, see last picture.
Is it a bottle in your opinion?
Kind regards
Giovanni


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« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 11:55:43 am by Bottle Guy » Report Spam   Logged

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Steven
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 09:58:37 pm »

Nice one!Giovanni,

I would think its a SB, and found one which is about your size, I thought it was yours if I didn't see the base rim. Wink

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fine-Old-Chinese-Purple-Flambe-Meiping-Snuff-Bottle-Vase-/271077836283?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item3f1d7f85fb

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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2012, 01:54:44 am »

Dear Steven,
that is very interesting, thank you. I found interesting that reference because I don't remember where I bought my one, most probably on ebay. So when I saw the one of the link that you have provided, which is indeed very similar (only one cm taller, but the glaze looks the same) I thought at first glance that then my one must be a recent one.
Instead, I can see two main differences, one being the shape and the other one the base.
The ratio shoulder/waist of the two bottles is different. That one has a thin waist compared to my bottle. Not to be taken as a firm prove, but the shape of my bottle is more "old".
More important is the glaze on the base. That particular type of glaze is often seen on monochrome vases of the second half of the 19th century. The grinded glaze edge too is common for that period, so I think that there are good chances that my bottle is late 19th century.
Giovanni
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 11:58:29 am »

Hi Giovanni,

Its interesting enough. I might move my bottle here since I found my bottle has been ground too.

Here are some pics I took today.

the crackles is allover the bottle including the mouth rim.



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* langyao_2.JPG (144.41 KB, 500x877 - viewed 10 times.)
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 03:17:52 pm »

Dear Steven,
I don't know if what we know for vases etc do apply for snuff bottle too or not. That type of glaze on the foot is seen on 19th century pieces. I may be wrong, but I suppose that in case of snuff bottles it is even more worth to consider. If the potter had the care of glazing a so small surface then I believe that he had a rule to accomplish. In my opinion you have an old bottle in hands, late 19th century at least.
kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 08:34:16 pm »

Giovanni..

I stumbled upon this vase that is described as "Japanese" flambé glazeed studio pottery dated at about 1930..

Thought this may be another interesting reference for you..

eBay link.......
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 08:40:47 pm by Bottle Guy » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 05:12:26 am »

Thank you dear George. The shape is a bit odd for Chinese, it must bee Japanese as you said.
Dear Steven,
More I look at your Langyao glazed bottle and more I believe that it has a certain age, probably older than my flambé glazed one.
You probably know that Langyao glaze was actually composed by two glazes. A red transparent copper glaze was applied by brush on a transparent crackled glaze. Thus the tendency to run down.
Most of the 18th century Langyao vases has a light celadon like transparent glaze on the base. But usually the running of the glaze was much better under control and there was no need to grind the excess of glaze at the lower edge. The yellowish/ivory tone of the glaze on the base as that of my bottle is seen on late 19th century pieces, where usually the border of the glaze was grinded.
Kind regards
Giovanni
PS: of course I am talking about vases, not snuff bottles in particular, but…
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 08:22:49 am »

Dear Steven,
if you want to have a fun, try to compare your bottle with the following pictures, but be aware that monochromes is an hard field. Here below are pictures of my langyao pieces of different periods.
The first picture is showing a Kangxi vase which neck has been filed. So what you see there is not the foot, it is the cut of the upper part of the vase. That is a Kangxi langyao glaze.
The second picture is showing the type of glaze on the base. It is not clear in the picture, but the langyao glaze edge has not been ground.
The third picture is showing a later, but still 18th century or very early 19th century langyao. The glaze edge has been ground, and the glaze on the base is close to that of the previous one and, possibly, of the same type of the one on your bottle.
The fourth picture is the base of a late 19th century langyao vase. The glaze looks similarto that of my bottle.
Giovanni


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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 10:21:14 am »

Hi Giovanni,

Thank you so much for taking your time and provide us the detail explanation and reference images, it has been a Huge help on dating  the bottle.

As I was told the best Langyao red is from Kangxi, and was copied a lot from the later period, and the specially later 19th and early 20th. langyao red also can be 2 layers glazed or one layer glazed, if its 2 layer glazed , then the whole ware should be red without the white mouth rim. if its one layer glazed, the mouth can be white ,and the color getting dark to the bottom, even in the kangxi period, we still can find some wares' bottom be ground since the glaze was too thick on the bottom after being fired.( I was told 10-15% need to be ground or fixed).

I do can see some similarity from the last ware to my bottle, kind of excited, as you mentioned monochromes is really hard field, lots and lots need to be learned.

Thanks again!

Steven

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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2012, 12:05:56 am »

Dear Giovanni and Steven,

This is all new territory to me...and VERY interesting! Thank you both for sharing your knowledge. This is a truly great forum.  Cheesy

Tom
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2012, 12:09:49 pm »

Dears,
I am very happy today. I received a book from Joey (thank you dear Joey, we are missing you on these days) and I have found there a bottle similar to my one, which is dated by him 1800-1850. You can see it in the first picture below.
Well, it may be a coincidence since I am not so knowledgeable on snuff bottles, but if some of the rules of Chinese porcelain are valid in this field too, then we can see something interesting. One of the more strict rules when it comes to antique Chinese porcelain is the shape. It is one of the more important feature to look at when judging an antique piece. Well, here below you can see, in the second picture, Joey's bottle compared to my one, and in the third picture Joey's bottle compared to the one on ebay, seen in the link posted above by Steven. The thinner waist compared to the shoulder is evident in the third picture, while my and Joey's bottles has the same proportions.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 12:35:04 am »

Thanks Giovanni,

What a great way to do the comparison  Smiley.

But I have to say both of your bottle and the one on ebay are not same proportion with Joey's , altho I don't really know how the shape of the bottles will indicate different dates. Cool

The top rim and shoulder match well with joey's bottle, but not the base, the base is kind of small in my opinion, while the ebay one's base match well with Joey's while the shoulder is not.

I would love to hear more about how to date those bottles:)
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2012, 12:45:45 am »

Dear Giovanni,

A great comparative analysis. Like Steven though, I do not see enough clear distinction between the three vase shapes. They are like three ladies - all with beautifully shaped bodies, and we are asked to say which is younger and which is older!

Please guide us...

Tom
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2012, 02:18:01 am »

Dear Steven and Tom,
What I meant is that what often betray the hand of the faker and that of the modern potter is the fact that he is not able to control himself. He is not severe with himself, he is copying something that he should reproduce exactly as it is, but at the end he can’t resist to the temptation of adding something that he thinks is more pleasant. So, for example, the curves are accentuated, the base more splayed, the shape more elongate, and so on. Typical examples are vases in meiping form with minuscule mouth and exaggerated shoulders.
I took the three pictures of the bottles from ebay, Joey’s and my one, and re-sized them  to the same exact height. Then I did measure the diameter of the shoulder, the waist and the base.  The result is shown in the table below. You can see that while the ratio shoulder/base is similar to all them, when it comes to the waist ratio then there is a substantial difference between the ebay bottle and the other two.
Saying that,  let me stress once again that I am applying here the same principles that are valid for other ware, i.e. antique porcelain vases and related imitations. If this is valid for snuff bottles too I really do not know but I think that in a certain degree it should be, because the reason that is at the base of such differences remain the same, i.e. the tentative of making an object more appealing.
Giovanni
 


* Comparison.JPG (28.66 KB, 685x159 - viewed 10 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2012, 08:51:44 am »

Dear Giovanni,

I admire your analytic approach - I think you have become the forum's CA (Chief Analyst).  Grin

I do not see why the 'rule' you use for other porcelain wares should not also apply to snuff bottles. After all, they are simply smaller versions of the same family.

Tom
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2012, 06:44:01 am »

Dear Tom,
I too think that you are right. Not about the Chief Analyst:), about the the fact that especially during the Imperial era there was rules to follow.
Giovanni
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2013, 12:42:28 pm »

Dear Giovanni,
   I just accessed this, and thank you; it is facinating. But how would you date my former bottle, your bottle and the third bottle, if they were all vases?
   Because, like Steven, I agree that they should follow the same rules as those for the larger wares. The cultural constraints (ie., which shape is more elegant, in the eyes of the artisan) should be the same.
Joey
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2013, 05:20:25 pm »

Dear Joey,
I continue busy and am having just quick looks at the board. I promise to be more active in the near future.
I don't remember if on ebay the picture of the base was also provided. In lack of that, based only on the shape, I believe that the bottle from ebay is newer than our bottles, which should share about the same period. This is just a personal opinion, late copy generally tends to exaggerate the shape or distinct features.
Giovanni
 
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2013, 05:17:59 pm »

So, Giovanni, both your bottle and mine are 1800-1850, if I understand correctly. When is the third one from, 1850-1900 or 1990-2005 ?
Joey
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