Rose crackle glaze

[Wattana]

Hi All,

This bottle made a brief appearance a few months back, in connection with another thread on 'soft paste'. By here creating a separate post, I hope some fellow members will be able to say a little about this method of glazing and staining. Also, if there are any specific clues concerning this bottle's dating.

Description: Soft-paste porcelain snuff bottle with rose colour crackle-glaze, in the form of a mei-ping vase, high-shouldered with a short cylindrical neck, the body slightly flared towards the lower portion; with a neatly formed circular footrim and recessed, crackle-glazed base. Dark green jade stopper. Height w/o stopper: 6.3 cm.

Look forward to your comments.

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Tom,
what a coincidence. On september 25, i.e. a couple of weeks ago, I did the following post on Gotheborg:
"Dear all,
these is new to me. Look at the miniature vase, “peachbloom glaze, Kangxi period” according to the seller, item 280549293011 on ebay.
Have you seen that? Well, actually he say that it is “peachbloom liver spot”.
Somebody here, may be the seller, may be someone else before him, did wash a normal glaze with a special liquid that is highly fluid (extra-low viscosity) and pink colored, which is especially made for the industry. The purpose of the liquid is to evidence fine, not visible cracks. In our company we use it for evidencing minute cracks on cordierite or porcelain insulators after having submitted them to the thermal shock test. It has that exact color. You can see that the small vase has been treated that way because the colorant is not only visible in the glaze, it is clearly visible on the exposed paste of the foot too.
Now you know what is the rare “peachbloom liver spot glaze”:-)
Giovanni"

So dear Tommy I don't know for sure if your snuff bottle is an old one or not, but surely what you have on it is not a pink glaze, which should not be pink in the crackles. In my opinion it is a fake; the dark staining on the foot too is pointing toward that, especially if it is hard to remove. Dirty come out easily, artificial stain not.
Sorry for disappointing you.
Giovanni

[Steven]

Hi Tom,

I have not seen any  rose colour crackle bottles before, normally its golden color or silver color, I do have a cracked Meiping bottle with some pinkish crackle on the base.
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,845.0.html

You might not see the pinkish very well, since the pic is out of focus on the area. but its there, the color is not strong as yours tho. I will post it this weekend with new photo.

Steven

[Wattana]

Hi Steven,
   I am not sure what colourant is used to make the rose crackle effect.  I assume it must be a natural extract from a plant or insect (such as crimson lac or cochineal). On your example the colour is indeed very pale, hardly visible in the photo. And I am surprised to learn that you have not seen a  similar colour before.

Hi Giovanni,
   I am not exactly sure what you mean by "fake". The word is generally applied to items that are produced to deceive the buyer, which is not the case here. This bottle was purchased during my early collecting years. It came from an old private American collection which was originally formed in the early 1900s, and was being disposed of in the 1970s. It came with a certificate stating it to be over 100 years old at time of purchase. Of course, one should never rely on certificates alone, but if true, the bottle must pre-date 1880. Your other recent thread discusses the proportion of waist and shoulder on meiping bottles / vases. That is very interesting as a way of dating items.
   It was clearly made for everyday use, not as a display item. There are many other 19th century examples of similar shape and size, also in soft-paste porcelain, but not with this colour of stain. It is not something that anyone would reproduce in modern times (1970s), and waste time making it look old.    
   As you correctly point out, the rose-colour stain is applied after the clear glaze, and so only permeates the cracks, like your 'testing dye' for porcelain insulators. I was hoping to learn more about how the effect was achieved, and what colourant was used to creat the pigment.

Tom

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Tom,
first at all please apologize if I may appeared rude in saying that the bottle is a fake. I said so because artificial ways of making an object looks older or different from what they really are is usually considered a fake activity. But I agree completely with you, from there we have a lot of possibilities. May be that who sold the bottle did the treatment on an already old bottle to make it look even older, or more interesting at his eyes; who knows? Probably we will never know why someone did that. So my statement is indeed a bit hasty, but it is out of doubt that the bottle has been “touched up”, that type of pink crackled glaze does not exist. I don’t know the nature of the red colorant of such penetrant liquids. Here is a link showing how they works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dye_penetrant_inspection
Here below I am adding the picture of a ceramic insulator on which I did the shock thermal test many years ago. I did not follow the exact procedure, I mean I did not wash the sample so its surface is pinkish too. Although not directly comparable (different source of light and cameras) you can see that the hue of the color is of the same family that the one on your bottle.
So in my opinion the bottle had such treatment.
I would like to take the opportunity to make some considerations about the fake industry.
I have read here and there in this forum some comments saying that it is hard to believe that an item is a fake because it is not worth to spend time and efforts on a not highly valuable item. This idea is valid for Western parameters, but absolutely not for China. There are fake items out there which require much more efforts and time, sold for few euro here in Europe, so you can imagine that the original price must be in the range of one euro or even less. I can show some examples.
Another point is the provenance. A lot of people claims, not necessarily fraudulently, and often in bona-fide, that an item is property of the family since let say one hundred of years or so, because bought by the grandfather of the grandfather etc. I have seen many of such cases that was absolutely impossible, because simply a post Republican piece cannot be older than 100 years for example. That is more common than expected. An inherited collection made by the grandfather can easily include an item bought by the father, or put there as curiosity.
Another common opinion, wrong in most cases, is that of believing that old dirty is similar to stain. Old dirty is easily removed by a simple wash. Stain is not so common as most believe. We can have Song earthed pieces that are absolutely not stained, and note that I am not talking about glazed ware only. The un-glazed base too has a surface burnished skin that it is hard to be affected.
Many collectors does not clean their items fearing to remove the “sign of time”. There are different approaches to this point. My personal opinion is that dirty is dirty. Signs of age are another thing. I always carefully wash all my items.
Dear Tom, did you wash your bottle? That blackish all around the foot must come off. If it is hard to remove, that is very suspicious to my parameters.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Wattana]

Dear Giovanni,

There is absolutely nothing to apologize about. I always appreciate your opinion. Yes, I understand and agree with what you are saying, especially about an "old" collection having items added to it by a later generation.  

What is most interesting to me is that neither you or Steven have come across rose-colour crackle on porcelain. I have little knowledge of porcelain, and had always assumed it to be a familiar colour on other porcelain wares, although I have not seen it on another snuff bottle. That would appear to confirm your opinion that it may have been stained some years after its manufacture. (I have never tried to clean it, but I will.) Your photo of the ceramic insulator is close in appearance, but a brighter pink.

I did not start collecting porcelain snuff bottles until the 1990s. For nearly 20 years my interest was not porcelain but stone, so this rose-crackle bottle was one of the few porcelain items in my collection. It was only there because it was part of a lot of three, and I wanted the two stone bottles being sold with it. To be honest I did not have much interest in it. But 20 years later, in the late 1900s, I saw another bottle almost exactly the same shape and size as mine, but "creamy white" like typical soft-paste - the cracks being hardly visible. I was surprised to find it sold for many hundreds of dollars.

In conclusion, I think that my bottle may have started its life as a simple creamy white soft-paste porcelain, and been 'touched up' with stain later, for whatever reason.

Tom

[George]

Hi Steven,
   I am not sure what colourant is used to make the rose crackle effect.  I assume it must be a natural extract from a plant or insect (such as crimson lac or cochineal). On your example the colour is indeed very pale, hardly visible in the photo. And I am surprised to learn that you have not seen a  similar colour before.

I purchased a crackled mustard yellow bottle recently.. While researching the different crackle sizes and colors, found the following comment..

"Traditionally the Chinese connoisseurs have been distinguishing between a large, bold, crackle, termed "crab's claw", and a much closer and smaller network termed "fish roe" crackle. The former developed first, and was accentuated with black pigment: the latter, developing at a later stage, was coloured red. On Ge ware sometimes a combination of both are found".

Doing a Google search, I could not find a single rose, or pink crackled porcelain .. Leaving me to wonder if the color on yours was originally intended to be red, and turned out a bit faded for what ever reason ?  Giving the rose color appearance on this "large crab claw crackled" bottle of yours ? 

Except for these modern ( pink/rose? ) crackled beads..



Even though I could not find an example,  Cira Wiki describes crackle pink as... "A whitle crackled glaze, filled in with rose or pink color. It was produced in the Ch'ien-lung ( 1711 - 1799 ) period. So if yours were the real deal, then would be quite old !

Giovanni's thoughts about the dark ring may shoot this possibility down though.. I just don't know...... 

[Wattana]

George,

Thanks for your input. An intriguing thought!
Yes, I remember the post with your crackled mustard yellow bottle. Thank you for the link.

Tom

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Tom, George,
I never heard about a crackles stained in pink color under Qianlong. Of course nobody knows everything, but I will be very surprised to see something about that. Usually, the crackles were enhanced by staining them with tea. On Ge ware, the finest examples were stained two times. The piece was covered with a glaze that during cooling has a much higher shrinking rate than the one of the body. Due to that, a net of big crackles did develop during the cooling phase. Such crackles was so strong that often they affected also the body underneath, I mean the crackle was propagating under the first strata of the body. These large cracks were stained dark. After that, the item had a second firing, probably at a lesser temperature, which in the cooling phase developed a much fine net of crackles. These secondary crackles was stained in a lighter tone, contrasting with the primary crackles. The combination of the two different colored nets is called “gold thread and iron wire” and it is particularly pleasant.
I have never heard about red staining too.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Wattana]

These secondary crackles was stained in a lighter tone, contrasting with the primary crackles. The combination of the two different colored nets is called “gold thread and iron wire” and it is particularly pleasant.

Dear Giovanni,

I have never come across this technique - probably snuff bottles were too small to make it work effectively.
But it sounds very attractive. Do you have an example to show us?

Tom
 

[Steven]

Hi Tom,

Here is a song period ge ware, also called “gold thread and iron wire”, the gold crackles and iron crackles was formed during the firing, there is no any dye process involved , I guess that is the reason Giovanni mention 'fake' at first place.

The best Ge ware were from Song period, It never be surpassed during the later periods, all the later Ge wares are just the copies.  

[Steven]

Hi Tom,

Call me PI,:)Just found a Ge ware bottle with very similar rose color appearance with yours on Bonhams, sadly, there is no date on it, but at least, I think that color is could be on the Ge ware bottle, and not done by any dye process.since it looks very natural to me. also you can see “gold thread and iron wire” on top part of the bottle

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19847/lot/356/?search_query=1&division=None&passages=True&earliest_first=False&country=None&past_sales=future&back_to_year=2003&sale_no=None&top_level_department=None&department=None&query=snuff+bottle&create_facets=True&value_data_currency=GBP

Steven

[Wattana]

Hi Steven,

Great detective work!

Firstly, thanks for the picture of Song period Ge ware. Now I see what Giovanni was saying - it is really very attractive.

Secondly, the Bonhams bottle appears to have the same shade of pink as mine. The difference is that the Bonham example has two distinct layers of crackle, of different size, as in the Ge ware. My bottle has only the one layer.

By the way, when I clicked on the Bonhams link it popped up on my screen with the words "Welcome Thomas"! How did the web page know my name?!?

Tom

[Steven]

By the way, when I clicked on the Bonhams link it popped up on my screen with the words "Welcome Thomas"! How did the web page know my name?!?

Hi Tom,

I guess it because you are very famous, no any website knows my name.

Seriously, you might have some spyware installed on your computer, I don't have this kind of popup windows when I opened it up, its from the bonhams website or just a popup window?

Steven

[Wattana]

Hi Steven,

I am using the office computer, which has very high security filters. Besides, the words are printed on the Bonhams page using the same graphics. It is not a separate pop up window. I guess Bonhams have a cookie to recognize me even without logging in. Scary! 

Tom

[Wattana]

I always carefully wash all my items.
Dear Tom, did you wash your bottle? That blackish all around the foot must come off. If it is hard to remove, that is very suspicious to my parameters.

Dear Giovanni,

What do you recommend for washing the bottle? Just soap and water....or something stronger?

Tom

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Hi Tom,
I am at job and very busy for a while. I will answer a bit later.
Giovanni

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Tom,
here is a Qianlong cong vase with the Ge type glaze. It is one of my preferred pieces, bought on ebay for almost nothing, sold as late 19th century, with some damage. One corner of the mouth was chipped and badly glued back. You can see very well the primary and secondary crackles. I am posting it here because it is suited to answer to both your questions. The two crackle patterns stained with different colors do develops in two different stages as explained before. After that, the crackling process is not definitely stabilized. Because the different strength between glaze and body, time and temperature changes lead to the developing of further finest crackles, not so clearly visible because not enhanced by stain.  At that point, if one want to enhance this further net of crackling, it is possible by a further stain agent, being it the pink liquid or else.
In my opinion that is the case of the bottle sold by Bonhams. Note that it is sold in a group of bottles, at a low price. Once again I may perfectly be wrong but I am not aware of pink stained crackled ware.
As for cleaning, I suggest you to try first by brushing it with water and dish detergent. After that, if necessary, try acetone. Do not fear to affect something! As I said, the Ge type square vase had a chipped corner of the mouth badly glued back. I did try a lot of thinners with no success. I didn’t know which type of glue was that. At the end, it has been possible to remove it by a paint stripper. So if you consider that even after 24 hours under the action of the paint stripper which is a very strong agent, being a mix of different thinners, the glaze was not affected at all, and even the stain of the crackles which are most probably made by tea, then you can be very confident about cleaning your bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Wattana]

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for the photos of your cong vase. Very attractive - I can clearly see the 'gold thread and iron wire'.

I am away travelling for the next 3 weeks, but after my return I will try cleaning the snuff bottle in the way you have described. 

Tom

[Steven]

I am away travelling for the next 3 weeks

Have a great trip! Tom,

The Forum will be quite for a while since you guys will be all on the trip.