Dragon and phoenix purple overlay bottle

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear all,
since the thread about the “Eight horses of Mu Wang” bottle is at end (it has been well beyond what I did expected, with great satisfaction) I am showing here the second bottle that I bought at the recent Antique Fair. The glass looks old to my eyes. If compared with the other overlay glass carved bottles that I have seen, here it is evident that the transparent background is not well polished until the edge of the overlay figures. There is a kind of rough contour all around the carved figures. I suppose that this means a less care in polishing, thus a not so good quality bottle. Nevertheless I bought it because of the overall feeling of old object. The overlay is of a very dark purple color, almost black.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Wattana]

Dear Giovanni,

Judging by the quality of both the bottle itself and the carving, I would say it may not be as old as you think. I hope you did not pay too high a price for it. I bought quite a number of overlay glass bottles from "antique" markets in Bangkok in the 1990s, when I was still new to Thailand. Some were quite similar to your bottle. The prices ranged from US$10 - US$50, depending on quality, so I didn't mind that they turned to be not so old. I would guess they were made mostly in the 1960s and 1970s. I have one that is almost exactly the same design on same shape of bottle, with a dragon one side and a phoenix on the other (also with no legs on the bird!). I only have a PDF image of it, and don't know how to post PDF files, so cannot share it with you here. (I could email it to you.)

If you examine the scales of the dragon on your bottle, they are quickly made by simple cross-hatch ( XXXXX ). The scales on older bottles are much more carefully made, curving to follow the form of the dragon's body. I am posting here a bottle made around 1970-1980 where the dragon is carved the same way. I hope it shows up clearly enough for you to see what I mean.

In conclusion I do not think your bottle was made any earlier than 1960s or 1970s, but that is just my humble opinion, and I may be wrong. Let's get some other opinions!

Tom

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Tom,
thank you. The dragon of your bottle is very similar. Good to know that what you said about the cross hatched scales is valid for glass carved snuff bottles too. I know that for Chinese enameled ceramics. If the scales are cross hatched, then the piece is no older than very late 19th century. I thought that in the case of carved glass that way could have been in use much earlier, because of the difficulty of carving round scales which needs to be individually carved.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Giovanni,
   I must agree with Tom, sadly (not sadly because I have to agree with Tom,  but because I have to dash your hopes again). The glass colour is wrong for earlier than  1960s-1990s; same with the carving.
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dera Joey,
thank you for your comment. I am very interested to understand what you mean by glass colour not correct. Are you referring to the purple glass? And why?
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Giovanni,
   There are correct and incorrect shades of  coloured glass. What I mean is, there is a specific Imperial Yellow shade for each Emperor. If you get a bottle with one Emperor's ostensibly genuine mark on a glass bottle of another's shade, it can't be right. Or opaque turquoise glass is  (as far as I know) only found from Daoguang onward (till today). If you find a facetted octagonal Imperial glass bottle  in that colour with a Kangxi mark, it's got to be fake.
  That colour purple is fine for the period 1960-2012; not earlier, IMHO.
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Thank you dear Joey for that tip about the shade of the purple glass.
I bough th ebottle mainly on the basis of the white glass, which ha d an old feeling to my eyes, especially because of the conditions of the upper part, the collar around the mouth I mean.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Giovanni,
   That's why I don't like to buy snuff bottles over the internet.
When I collected in Toronto (1970-1973), every few months there would be an auction with snuff bottles. There were also dealers, not great dealers, but dealers.
  Then, in 1973, when I was 16, we moved to Jerusalem, Israel. I had 23 snuff bottles. I got used to being at the long end of a supply route for snuff bottles (like my country for everything else, since the wonderful, peace-loving Moslem Arab countries surrounding us refused to live with us in peace, and blockaded us).
  YF Yang (himself a Chinese Moslem!) became my main source, though I bought a few on a trip to South Africa in 1974 (from fellow collectors who I visited, and from antique shops in Johannesburg, Durban and Capetown), and on visits to USA/Canada/UK. But it taught me to be patient, and to be careful (I started when I was 13, and I didn't want to screw up and waste money).
  In 1978, I finished my 36 months compulsory military service, got married, and went off to Hong Kong for my first ICSBS convention, met YF for the first time (a wonderful, honest, caring person, my teacher and 'rabbi' in snuff bottles),
bought a whole group of bottles from him; met other dealers (mainly Chinese Moslem; some European and American), and became part of the wonderful snuff bottle collecting family, and I've never stopped learning.
  Why do I write all this Giovanni? Because I want to try to help you NOT make further mistakes in snuff bottle collecting. Don't buy based on feelings, till your feelings are based on more knowledge than you currently possess.
  Did I send you my 1987 catalogue? It is a general catalogue with all sorts of snuff bottle materials, and we were very careful to get the colour separations correct. The plain glass and carved glass sections would give you a good example of correct colours at the time indicated in each bottle's description.
Best, Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Joey,
a deep thank you for your wise suggestions and your noble aim to take others (beginners like myself) by hands to help them along the road. It recall me my beginning in collecting Chinese ceramics. Experts on the forum was suggesting not to buy impulsively but only after reading, touching, building up our own knowledge. Despite that I have a lot of garbage in the garage. Now I am who suggest others to not buy impulsively. On snuff bottles I am starting all that again. So I am deeply grateful to you and all these new friends that I have found here.
I have seen that here is allowed to submit items that one is willing to buy, but I don't know exactly how it is ruled.
Anyway, I am slowly reading your wonderful books, a great gift. You have sent me "Worlds in a bottle" and "In search of a dragon". I don't know the title of your 1987 catalogue.
Warm regards
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Giovanni,
   You are in luck! I just received the 27 copies of my 1987 catalogue I'd sent from my Irish home. It is soft cover, and only 64 pages, but illustrates 96 snuff bottles and 6 snuff dishes. I'll send you a copy, with the addendum I published in 1989, showing 3 enamel wares from the Martin Schoen collection.
   Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

dear Joey,
I hope to have the possibility to exchange your kindness. Thank you!
Giovanni
 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Giovanni,
   By your spirited, heartfelt contributions to the Forum,  you've already more than repaid me.
I'm happy to share knowledge.  Successful cultures teach their members to share knowledge, and everyone is thereby enriched. Failing cultures teach their members to hoard knowledge, and everyone loses as a result. Israel and USA are successful; that is why they are hated by the failing cultures, like the Arabs, etc.
 I only joined 8 1/2 months ago, but feel like I've been on it 20 years, and really enjoy the rich interaction. You have enriched it even more. And remember, there are no dumb questions; only dumb answers.
Joey

[Wattana]

 And remember, there are no dumb questions; only dumb answers.

Joey,

Truer words were never spoken!

Tom

[Tom B.]

Dear Giovanni,

I missed this thread back then, but I wanted to add that Joey (Joseph Baruck Silver) KNOWS plenty about Chinese carved overlay glass snuff bottles!!

The attached image is a snuff bottle that Joey once owned. It is a VERY, VERY RARE TRIPLE OVERLAY YANGZHOU GLASS SNUFF BOTTLE! This masterpiece was made by fully overlaying 3 different colors on the formed white glass bottle and then carving the wonderful design.  It was then polished to perfection – a true Yangzhou masterpiece and it sold for a world record auction price for a Yangzhou overlay glass snuff bottle.  Three color full or true overlay glass snuff bottles are almost never offered anywhere!

Some of you may think that they have seen snuff bottles with 3 and more colors being offered for a few thousand dollars, but those were made with the blobbed on technique. You can find multicolor snuff bottles with up to 7 different colors and most do not even have one single true layer of overlay.  There are a few with one or two layers of true overlay and then a few more colors blobbed on for a total of five colors, but they are actually only single or double overlay. 

Best regards,

Tom B.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Tom B.,
   Thank you. Because of my Asperger's (a mild case Thank G-D, but there), I was a bit embarrassed by that effusive praise. After blushing strongly for a few minutes, I realised there was no-one here, and calmed down.

   That is an amazing price. I bought that bottle from Clare Chu (then Clare Lawrence) in Chicago, just before the 1989 ICSBS convention there (the day before, when I visited her and her now ex-husband Louis, in their suite, to view all her bottles before she displayed them in the dealers' room. We (those who are friendly with the dealers) all do it - visit them before, to see if we can find a treasure  we can't live without). I paid US$9,500 for that bottle. It was the most I'd ever paid for a glass snuff bottle. Clare had bought it for a lot, and needed to sell it. I was not going to buy it, even though it was so great, because of the price, at least double what I'd paid for my next most expensive glass bottle, but agreed, to because she was under pressure. She asked US$9,500 and got US$9,500. Honestly, Clare Chu is the one who found the bottle, and discovered its 'greatness'. I was just a friend, try to help out a friend, but I lucked out. And did get to play with a really superb glass bottle for a few years.
 
   I believe I sold it for US$35,000, again via Clare, in the period  July 1991- Oct.1993 (I gave Clare all my bottles, except my B & Ws and my IPSBs; and she sold them for me. On that bottle she would have received a commission of 10%, so I would have made 300% of the purchase cost. When Joe Grinberg sold it, he made 400% of the purchase cost. ).
 
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Thank you dear Tom B. and Joey. I didn't know that at all! I thought that all multiple overlay bottles were really overlay. That is really new to me.
What a great bottle!
Giovanni

[Tom B.]

Dear Joey,

No need to blush if it is the truth. You own/have owned many of the world's great snuff bottles. Over the years you have held and examined a good percentage of the world's best snuff bottles. Your experience is greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

Tom B.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Tom B.,
    You are correct, of course. However,  I have a mild case of Asperger's Syndrome, and get embarrassed easily when being complimented or praised. It is silly, but I do.   
    One big mistake I made before I sold the collection through Clare, was not producing a catalogue of my total collection at that time. It would have documented it.
    A mensch like Joe Grinberg documented his bottles from my collection. There are at least 50 bottles from my collection in the Bloch Collection, which are not attributed to my prior ownership. This is probably the fault of Robert Hall and Hugh Moss, though George Bloch himself wasn't such a mensch.
   Clare Chu (then Lawrence) was and is always very careful to give correct attribution and provenance. The other two think they are sufficient provenance in themselves.
   Anyway, thank you for your kind words,
  Joey