A Ma Shaoxuan bottle

[Wattana]

Hi All,

This is up for auction in Zurich:
A FINE INSIDE PAINTED SNUFF BOTTLE BY MA SHAOXUAN. China, height 5 cm.
Estimate: Euros 3,300-5,000

Sorry, I don't have any other images. It doesn't look much like his style or quality of work. Is it genuine?

Tom
PS: I have added a POLL to make it more interesting.

[Lotus Flower]

Annoyingly I havent saved a reference in the filename, but I found this image in my database. I have no idea where I saved it from, i may have got it from Hugh Moss' website. I know this is a genuine piece though, else I wouldn't have saved it.

James

[Lotus Flower]

Also had this link saved in my files:

http://www.thecranecollection.com/the-collection/inside-painted/middle-school

It's the first bottle on the left. It's a very small picture but you can still see that difference in quality compared to the Zurich example.

Here's a close up of some genuine Ma monkeys, taken from Christies.

Hope these are of some help!


James

[Steven]

Thanks James,

I like the last one best, I personally think those three are all genuine Ma family bottles, I  can't tell if they are From Ma Shaoxuan or other family members ( its really hard, I was trying to do a comparsion about Ma family signature, but its harder than I thought, since theyre not documented well on Ma family and Ma shaoxuan on the Ma family bottles, I will see what I can do.

I only can say, the brush stokes on the first two are not as subtle as the third one.

Steven

[Lotus Flower]

No problem Steven. On the back of the first bottle I posted, does it mention anything about 'Journey to the West' within the calligraphy? I wondered if this might be the subject matter?

James

[Lotus Flower]

As far as my opinion on the Zurich bottle, the spacing of the calligraphy looks very 'off' to me. Do you know what I mean? It seems too spacious. I would say it isn't by Ma himself. Could be a family bottle. Could be an early copy. It does look like it has some age. That's just my opinion

[Lotus Flower]

One thing to note with the Zurich bottle: if you look at the lighting, there is a shadow to the front of the bottle. This means it was lit from behind. As we all know: the quality of the painting seems to deterioate when lid from behind doesn't it: like when you hold it up to the light, it looks really messy because you can't see the defined outlines - you just see a transparent mess. So maybe a photo with the right lighting conditions will give a more realistic image of the painting quality. Something to consider

James

[Steven]

No problem Steven. On the back of the first bottle I posted, does it mention anything about 'Journey to the West' within the calligraphy? I wondered if this might be the subject matter?

James

Hi James,

The first and second subject is not related with 'Journey to the West' ,but the third one is as I can tell. its similar with a monkey on a horse back scene,which means "promoted generation by generation"
Bees and Monkey together  are consider to be " promoted", I don't know what will consider to be " generation by generation" , will do some reaserch tho.

Good observation on the spacing on the calligraphy, It doesn't bug me much, I assume the painter want to balance the empty space on the right side, but also don't want the calligraphy too big to outstanded the painting ,so he spaced it out more, I personally will accept that.

Steven

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

I think it is genuine and by Ma. I've seen this subject before, and Ma did  paint inside quartz bottles of this shape.
Is it by him or someone in his studio? I don't know, so I voted that it was by him (calligraphy looks right).
Joey

[Wattana]

James, Steven and Joey,

Many thanks for your input. And for bringing to my attention the other bottles with monkey theme. I was not aware that Ma painted almost exactly the same scene elsewhere. The Koller auction house in Zurich is the most reputable in Switzerland, so I am sure they would have checked before describing it as a Ma bottle. But then again, auctioneers do sometimes get it wrong.

To me the one from Zurich is the least impressive of the three monkey bottles posted. It was either painted by Ma on a bad day, or by one his relatives, copied from an earlier original. I vote for one of his relatives.

Tom

[hlbb]

Of the 4 bottles, I like the last 2 (Crane Collection and Christies) most.  The pictures for the Crane Collection bottle are small, but I like the poem provided in the description.  Not sure if anyone else notice: the Crane Collection refers Joey's Book for similar bottle, but the reference is all wrong (page as well as the bottle itself, maybe the editions are different)

The Christies bottle is obviously superb.  The calligraphy is just 'wow'.

I think the Zurich bottle and the Hugh Moss (?) bottle are both at least from Ma family.  I really would love to know what is on the reverse side of the Zurich bottle.  The poem on the second one is good too.  Not sure if it is original though.   

On that note, just want to clarify.  The monkeys have nothing to do with the 'Journey to the West' (or the Monkey King which is the more famous reference in the western academia)  In fact, the title of the 3 bottles of the same monkey scene is "To be Marquis for Generations"  In Chinese, the word "monkey" (猴) has the same pronunciation as the word "Marquis" (侯).   

In fact, the reverse side of the 2nd bottle is a poem roughly translated to:

Deep in the mountain with the green hill and red leaves;
Enjoying freedom under the howling moon and moaning wind;
Getting drunk or sober by myself in the fishing boat;
I had regretted life as marquis for ten years.

As I described before: typical Chinese scholar mentality.  Worked hard to achieve high official position, then regretted it and went back to the village.   

[Wattana]

Thanks Walter,

Always a value-added treat to read your comments.

You sum up the typical Chinese scholar mentality very succinctly. Its implicit sentiment seems to run through so many themes seen on snuff bottles, such as the Four Occupations.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Walter,
   I'm ashamed! I didn't even know the Crane collection referenced my catalogues!
I will check the bottles later tonight (I have an 'Open Sukka' from now till 17:00; then at 18:30, Christian friends celebrating "The Feast of Tabernacles" (Sukka is Hebrew for Tabernacle or Booth), and get back to you; but I don't remember a Ma Shaoxuan bottle in my collection with a monkey or a gibbon. I have a Chen Zhongsan bottle (D-2 in "THE WORLD IN A BOTTLE"; C-13 in "Worlds in a Bottle").
Joey

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Hi Guys, I'm back. My last guests left at 17:50, which left me 30 minutes  to have a loo break, pray my afternoon and evening prayers, and freshen up before going to meet my friends at their hotel, 8 min. walk away. I got back at 22:00, and just checked my 24 Ma Shaoxuans. I was right: no monkeys or gibbons. I do have the Chen Zhongsan I mentioned earlier, and in my blue & white porcelain snuff bottle collection, a lot of both.
Joey

[hlbb]

The Crane Collection referenced p.11 which is Preface page in my copy.  The bottle it mentioned A6 is Wang Xisan's Empress Dowager; totally unrelated to the monkey bottle.

Be that as it may, the Wang bottle is absolutely amazing.  The portrait itself is done in the style of MSX which is of typical high quality of Wang (see my avatar of the forum).  The calligraphy side was written is clerical script which seems to be a specialty of Wang.  It was an incisive critique of the empress.  I must say the spacing and the strokes combination are near perfect, really a masterpiece.

I have to spend more time with your catalog! 

[Wattana]

The Crane Collection referenced p.11 which is Preface page in my copy.  The bottle it mentioned A6 is Wang Xisan's Empress Dowager; totally unrelated to the monkey bottle.

Joey,

I think you should inform Charles Balbach of the error in the Crane Collection reference. The beauty of 'publishing' one's collection on the web is that it can easily be amended.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Sorry,   Walter.
  You are right. My WXS Cixi portrait is A-6, p.32 in "Worlds". It isn't in "The World.." since Agatha sold it to me so I could have it in my late father's (z"l) memorial catalogue.

  You are right as well, Tom. I'll tell the Crane catalogue people (I've not spoken to Charles since Palm Beach).
Best,
 joey