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January 23, 2018, 07:41:53 am
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Lacquer (I hope) bottle

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Wattana
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« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2012, 10:17:15 pm »


  SHANA TOVA (Happy Jewish New Year)! It starts tonight.


Hi Joey,

Wishing you a Happy Jewish New Year!

Tom
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Wattana
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« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2012, 10:31:46 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

Thank you for posting the results of your heat test. It was very interesting to read, and I really appreciated your scientific approach. Maybe you were slightly disappointed there was no pleasant aroma from the burnt chips of lacquer. This may be due to the very small size of the samples, so that no enough was produced to be detectable. Anyway, if the carbonizing process also releases traces of mercury from the cinnabar, it is best NOT to inhale too deeply!

Today I also read the two-way discussion between you and Joey. As you seem to have concluded the discussion, there is nothing useful I can add. Except for one thing...........next time I see a modern cinnabar lacquer bottle in a flea market I will be sure to lift it up and check its weight!  Cheesy

Tom
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« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2012, 11:53:31 pm »

next time I see a modern cinnabar lacquer bottle in a flea market I will be sure to lift it up and check its weight!  Cheesy

Tom

Me too !!
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« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2012, 01:53:22 am »

Haha, thank you dear Tom!
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2012, 07:59:12 am »

Good idea, Guys! Why didn't I think of that?!  Huh
Meanwhile, look at the gold snuff bottle in the Bloch Sale  II, lot 108. It is inscribed 'Jin Hing' (the name of the company founded by  Bob Li's grandfather, then his father's, now his), but described as 'Jin(?)xing', and given a 1780-1900 dating, when Bob's still got the documentation in his shop in LA (his grandfather moved the family to LA during the 1920s, I believe).
Shana Tova, (and thank you to everyone who gave good wishes; And may the whole world do better than last year)
Joey
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Wattana
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« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2012, 08:40:48 am »


Meanwhile, look at the gold snuff bottle in the Bloch Sale  II, lot 108. It is inscribed 'Jin Hing' (the name of the company founded by  Bob Li's grandfather, then his father's, now his), but described as 'Jin(?)xing', and given a 1780-1900 dating, when Bob's still got the documentation in his shop in LA (his grandfather moved the family to LA during the 1920s, I believe).


Joey,

That brings to mind a well-known English proverb, which I have modified slightly...
"All that glitters is not (g)OLD."  Wink

Tom
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« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2012, 10:49:21 am »

I have been following this thread with much interest. I still have a life-time's worth of knowledge to learn it seems!

Apologies for my rash observations Giovanni, but I felt like coming out of the shadows and offering an opinion. I may have been very wrong but it probably did me some good anyway.

Can someone tell me what all the black stuff is all over Giovanni's bottle? It's curious.

James
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« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2012, 12:03:18 pm »

James,
   I think the technical term is 'gunk'. Grin
Joey
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« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2012, 12:33:35 pm »



Can someone tell me what all the black stuff is all over Giovanni's bottle? It's curious.



I wonder if there is not some heat involved during the mold process. Enough that it scorched the resin to a dark color..  The high points could have been polished ( for lack of a better word ) after being removed from the mold.  No idea what would be used to buff or polish out those high points though..

Just a guess.. 
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« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2012, 12:41:18 pm »

That is a possibility, George... Whoops! I forgot Steven's (and Giovanni's) point. Actually it probably isn't from the mold, since it is carved. It is most likely, 'gunk' my first assumption (choose your favourite type of gunk - shoe polish/other)
 Wink Cheesy

Joey
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« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2012, 12:47:24 pm »

Hi George,

I agree with Giovanni and others that bottle is carved, that means it should not have any mold process involved after being carved. I would guess its just something like shoe polish to make the bottle look old. I have a modern Yixing clay bottle which has same stuff on it too, was trying to clean it, no sucess at all, kind of stiky, really hard to be removed.
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« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2012, 01:31:58 pm »

Dear all,
I am very surprised that you are surprised (no, I am not adding "that I am surprised"Smiley). I have often seen a black background on lacquer ware. I thought it were normal, I mean it can either be there or not. It is probably to imitate red lacquer over a background of black lacquer, as it is sometime seen on lacquer ware. Do you think that on snuff botltes it should not be there? Anyway, that black on my bottle is a paint, badly applied with a brush. I indeed wonder myself if it is better to leave it there or to remove it, but I suppose that it is there since it was made, so better to keep it as it was intended.
Giovanni
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Tom B.
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« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2012, 03:01:45 pm »

Hello all,

I just read through this thread for the first time and see that determining whether lacquer is genuine or resin can be the cause of a great deal of unnecessary work.  A very careful examination with a 10 power loupe is always sufficient for an experienced lacquer collector.  The first photos posted were sufficient to determine that Giovanni's bottle is carved and not molded. The first image is of a poor quality molded resin fake that is very easy to identify as such.  

The second image is a 19th century carved cinnabar red lacquer snuff bottle of the type that stood model for Giovanni's bottle. (it was described a Mark & Period by the auctioneer and sold for a respectable $1,950.00) The difference that is easiest to identify is the shape of the waves.    Giovanni's has the "continuous rounded waves" of the Republic of China and later type (after 1912) and the bottle posted here has the "pyramid" shaped waves that were used from the mid-Ming until the end of the Qing dynasty.



* 20thC Lacquer Bottle 07.0cmH 17 Apr09SkinnerMA1.jpg (110.12 KB, 662x800 - viewed 39 times.)

* 19thC Lacquer Bottle 05.7cmH QianlongMk 1,955 Feb12JuliaMaine1.jpg (116.86 KB, 499x700 - viewed 44 times.)
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2012, 04:17:25 pm »

Dear Tom,
you made me so happy. Up to now I was 99% sure that it was a lacquer bottle, now I am completely sure. Thank you. That is a great thing for me because I always thought that real carved bottles are rare. By your dating I understand that it is not really like that. Anyway it is great to have it, I am very happy.
It is good to know that detail about waves, will remember that.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2012, 05:32:21 pm »

Tom B.,
   Now you have got me confused. Do you call 'waves' the 'lappets'  around the base?
I thought they were called 'lappets' or 'lozenges'.
Joey
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« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2012, 05:49:15 pm »

Sure do like the one 19th century bottle !
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Tom B.
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« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2012, 10:13:09 pm »

Hi Joey,

Sorry for the confusion, but im haste I used the wrong terminology.  I should have said that the biggest difference is in the way the "water diaper pattern" is drawn.  I have attached a clarifying photo.  I will try to be more concise in the future.

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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2012, 02:48:33 am »

Dear Tom B.,
    No problem. I understand now. Yes I had looked at the quality and style of the diaper patterns myself, as a way to authenticate lacquer bottles.
Thanks for the clarification,
Joey
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« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2014, 07:11:40 am »

Want to add this link here that Pat shared in another topic ..

Separating genuine lacquer from plastic.

http://www.realorrepro.com/article/Cinnabar
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« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2014, 09:39:23 am »

Thanks George and Pat. A very useful link.
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Tom
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