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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 22, 2018, 06:53:35 am
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Glass Dragons

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Author Topic: Glass Dragons  (Read 1601 times)
rpfstoneman
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« on: July 23, 2012, 12:28:39 am »

All,

To start with I know virtually nothing about glass bottles, so correct me where Iím wrong.

Cameo Dragon Glass Snuff Bottle-


Clear bubble ground (as oppose to snowflake or arrowroot ground) glass snuff bottle with a double overlay.  The glass overlays are a very dark (almost black) brandy red underlayment with a white outer overlay depicting a five clawed dragon on each side chasing a flaming pearl to the side of the bottle.  A poorly defined Qianlong seal is presented on bottleís shoulder.  Height is 6 cm.  The stopper is a nipple shaped green glass imitating jade.  Represented to be ca. 1850-1900, but could be a 20th century bottle. Surface polishing on the clear base is done well up to the overlay contact points and in the small crevices of the design.

Although not a great bottle, the white dragon design is highlighted with the darker underlayment.  The surprise is when the bottle is backlit; the dragonís breath is fiery red amongst fire lit clouds.  A nice subtle effect you would not beware of when viewing the bottle head on.

Currently cataloging this bottle, so any further insight and/or opinions would be appreciated.  Sorry, picture quality good be better to truly reveal the bottle detail.  




Thanks, Charll
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 11:15:59 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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Joey
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 06:41:40 am »

Charll, It looks contemporary - too good to be original. Beautiful example, though.
In all my collecting, I never saw this combination in an antique bottle, and this quality of carving is way above what one sees in a genuine 18th/ 19th C. bottle.
Joey
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George
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 01:18:01 pm »

A beautiful Bottle Charll !

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Steven
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 02:27:10 pm »

Hi Charll,

I like the fine detail of the bottle a lot and the combination of the colors, the dragons turely stand out the dark color. also I agree with Joey it looks contemporay.

Steven
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 07:35:40 pm »

I have 5-6 of these that are/were made in the 80s/90s.  I agree that the carving work is totally different (and better) than the older ones.  However, I just can not get myself to like them more than antique ones.  In a way, it is true with IP as well, that the painting skills have also evolved so much. However, I like the idea that a bottle has been touched, loved, held, and stood the tests of time (or not, in some cases, as with some of my bottles).
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2013, 10:11:31 pm »

All,

A new bottle added to the collection. The year of the dragon is going to be soon over!


Chi Dragon Glass Overlay Bottle:
Decorated in a rich tone of dark blue depicting a chi Long  (chi dragon) on a milky white ground (often referred to frozen lard or boiled egg-white ground).   Identical chi design with chi inverted from front to back of bottle face.  Chi details crisply incised and polished into all crevices where chi design joins the white ground of bottle body.  Well executed and detailed lion mask ring handles on each side.  Well hollowed bottle that sets on raised oval foot ring of same blue color.    Glass stopper imitating aquamarine crystal with inclusions and stained ivory spoon.  Height is 5.6 cm by 4.7 cm in width.  Age reported to be 1800-1880.



Follow-up Info: The chi dragon or baby dragon/water dragon is depicted as hornless with a long sinuous body and a bifurcated tail.  The Chi is said to represent longevity.  Hugh Moss notes that the chi dragon motif was very popular at court and that this particular dragon was said to symbolize the Emperor, personally.  The motif was particularly popular during the Qianlong reign and is found with great frequency on snuff bottles made by court order.  (Source Vince Fausone)  

Charll's Friday Night Bottle, Enjoy!
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2013, 10:31:56 pm »

Very nice, and as always I look forward to your Friday posts !
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Joey
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2013, 09:44:05 am »

Pat,
  What was that you wrote in another thread about us going on too much about age?  Wink


I have 5-6 of these that are/were made in the 80s/90s.  I agree that the carving work is totally different (and better) than the older ones.  However, I just can not get myself to like them more than antique ones.  In a way, it is true with IP as well, that the painting skills have also evolved so much. However, I like the idea that a bottle has been touched, loved, held, and stood the tests of time (or not, in some cases, as with some of my bottles).

I rest my case,  Grin
Shabbat Shalom,

Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2013, 09:58:22 am »

Joey,
    Were you an attorney in a previous life...?
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Tom
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2013, 10:24:16 am »

I dont want to get into another long winded thread about this, but I never have and never will make the age of a bottle that I like or love come into how I feel about it.  Anyway..  It does not and has not stopped me rrom buying bottles that I like even if they are new(er)
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2013, 12:35:12 pm »

Ya Know,

My sentiment on this issue of 'age and quality' is QUALITY, QUALITY, QUALITY, regardless of the age!!!! 

But hey, sometimes I just buy to have an example as I am currently doing with the 1960-70 vintage Shandong school bottles, or I may be taking a risk on an unknown to learn (though on the cheap only!), or the bottles are just too fascinating to resist, such as my molded gourd purchases.  We all have different desires and taste, and I just want to make sure mine is QUALITY and LEARNING, at least most of the time.

Charll
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 01:48:03 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2013, 02:57:01 pm »

Charll, and Everyone on,
    I love VMIPSBs that are superb. I love antique bottles that are superb.
When I saw Peter's  fish bottle, which I know is not for sale, I was captivated by its beauty. I actually wrote that it tempted me to sell all my antique IPSBs and focus on VMIPSBs. I have written elsewhere that it is probably the finest fish subject bottle I've ever seen.
   But then I saw Georges' superb Sun Xingwu with the subject of a camel in a landscape (before I corrected it, the sentence read as if I'd SEEN Sun Xingwu with a camel in a landscape!), and, while I know it is not for sale either, I was still captivated by its beauty, and was thrilled that I have 4 of my own. 
  Quality is obviously primary, but authenticity is up there as well. And Pat, lest we forget, it matters to you too. And there is nothing wrong with that. Welcome to the gang, Pat.  Smiley
Best To all,
Joey
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2013, 07:09:35 pm »

charll, great bottles, I love the first one the most. I agree with steven, the dark background just makes the dragon pop. Congrats, Danna
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Danna
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2013, 11:56:05 pm »

Hi Charll,

Both these bottles are 1980s-1990s in my opinion. The detailing of the chilongs on the second one, as well as that intense blue hue, are almost exactly the same as one of my modern ones. 

I totally agree with your logic for buying modern equivalents where the old examples are beyond reach price-wise. I did exactly the same with overlay glass bottles. The only problem is that at least 50% of them began to crizzle 3-4 years after I bought them.

Interestingly, when I met up with Inn Bok in Bangkok a couple of weeks ago he mentioned the same problem, and had an intriguing explanation for it. But I won't steal his thunder - better let him tell the story.

Hope you haven't had the same experience with your modern glass bottles. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 12:04:10 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2013, 12:11:01 am »

Quote
The only problem is that at least 50% of them began to crizzle 3-4 years after I bought them.

No, have not had this issue at all.  Most of my recent contemporary glass bottles are milk white glass with overlays and painted enamels.  My non-milk white bottles are 20th century, not recent and likely prior to 1970.

Charll   
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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2013, 02:20:08 am »

When I saw this bottle come up for auction it sure brought yours to mind..

I am sure you have seen it, but thought would share it .. It comes from a pretty nice collection presently being sold off..

Perhaps it is also a Qianlong Court bottle ?


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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2013, 09:15:29 am »

   Pretty bottle, George. Modern in my opinion, but pretty.
   Although it could be 19th C., as they claim. I'd really need to handle it to be sure. The vendor keeps on about the carving on the dragons, ie., the surface carving. It is the quality of the background polish, that helps us to judge the age of the bottle.
   Before 1860, you get really finely finished backgrounds. Later, the background is not as well done, though this is not a rule set in stone. You can get finely finished background surfaces on later bottles, but it is rarer to find top quality after the Taiping Rebellion, etc.
   It certainly can't be Qianlong, since he died in 1799, and gave up his court in 1795, in order not to outshine his grandfather the Kangxi Emperor, who'd ruled 60 years (so Qianlong ruled 59 years)
   And the stopper insert looks more like blue agate than lavender jade, but I could be wrong about that as well...
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2013, 09:37:45 pm »

Dear all,

quote from Tom, Feb 2,
I totally agree with your logic for buying modern equivalents where the old examples are beyond reach price-wise. I did exactly the same with overlay glass bottles. The only problem is that at least 50% of them began to crizzle 3-4 years after I bought them.

Interestingly, when I met up with Inn Bok in Bangkok a couple of weeks ago he mentioned the same problem, and had an intriguing explanation for it. But I won't steal his thunder - better let him tell the story.


During the meeting with Tom in Bangkok, I mentioned what I thought could be the reason for cracking / crissing of bottles. I suspect that these bottles developed in Hebei in the 80's did not have the proper ' curing / cooling '. In metallurgy, the equivalent is known
as ' annealing '. The impatient bottle makers cooled the bottles too fast, resulting in in-built stresses that manifested some years later
in signs like ' kami-kase ' across the entire body of a bottle or snow-flakes, etc. Some of my overlay bottles I bought in the late 80's
gave way a few years later.

Inn Bok
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2013, 09:34:07 am »

A fellow collector told me that chi long on overlay glass bottles always had funny little ears (see pictures). Or is that only one school of overlay carving?

Georges


* SB No 86 Kopf.jpg (129.54 KB, 629x755 - viewed 13 times.)

* SB No 122 Kopf.jpg (110.82 KB, 667x767 - viewed 11 times.)
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2013, 11:10:57 am »

Quote
A fellow collector told me that chi long on overlay glass bottles always had funny little ears (see pictures). Or is that only one school of overlay carving?

Georges,

Most, if not all, the bottle designs with the chi long dragon as I recall have the small ears as you have illustrated.  I would suspect it has to do more with the representation of this creature than anything else, but now I going to pay more attention to this feature to see.   Thanks for pointing this out and paying attention to details. 

Charll

P.S.- Just went back and looked at some of these designs.  There appears to be at two ear types; the small pointed ears as Georges has illustrated and small rounded ears that roll in over the head such as the bottle I have.  Some glass overlay bottles have chi long dragons with both ear types on them.  Now we just need to find out if there is in fact a distinction between the ear types. 

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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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