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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 02:08:14 am
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1  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Re: Mu Peng? on: March 04, 2018, 10:38:17 pm
Hi  Rube,

Mu Peng is the  pen name  of  Guo Chunxiang.

He  is  most well  known for  his  calligraphy   bottles   (you  can find  several  wonderful  examples  on Bill  Patrick's  site)

But  he  also  did  indeed  paint a  series  of  bottles   like  yours  with   Chinese vases, urns  , censers  ( not  censors  Grin  )  and I have  a  lot  of  examples  those bottles  in my data  base.

I  cannot  find  Mo Shi  in my data  base

So, based  on the   facts  you  report:

1. Bottle  painted  in  1972
2. Bottle  bought in China  over 20 years  ago

also the  fact that :

3. Mo Shi  sounds  like a  pen name -not a  real  name

I'm guessing  that  Mo  Shi  was a  student   artist  in the  early  part  of the  Modern  era  who  used the name  Mo Shi  on his  student / practice  bottles,    because  those    vase/ urn/ censer  type  bottles  are a  very common  theme on  VMIPBs, especially for  students   because  they  are relatively  easy  to paint   using  a  book  as  the  master from which to  copy ( sort
 of "still  life" )    and there's plenty  of space  to  write  some  practice  wide-spaced   calligraphy .

The   key  question  is  therefore  whether  "Mo  Shi"  was   temporary  student  name  of a  more  well-known  artist  who went  on to  greater  fame  later and  started  using his  real name,  OR  whether  "Mo Shi"   dropped  out   of  IPB  painting  and  vanished.

Certainly  I can't  find  his name  in my data  base. Usually  - but  by no means  always -  when  a  famous   artist  used another  name  name (some used several pen names at different  stages  of their  careers) I  have been  able to  trace  all the  names to the same  artists and  and thus include  all the   cross-references  in my  data  base.

However,    very much   doubt if this  bottle  was  painted  by a  student  of  Mu Peng  if it was  bought  20 years  ago because Mu Peng  was  born  in  1976 ,  so the  earliest  he  would  have been  mature  enough  to take  on his  own students  would  be  at age  40 -ish  =  which  would be  about   now.

Anyway - that's my  2  cents  worth.



PS:  Buy a  copy of  DB  - it  will  help  you a  lot  with your research  on VMIPBs !   Smiley

2  The Gathering / The Lounge / Re: Wang XiSan Articles on: January 13, 2018, 01:32:58 am
Hi Pin

Many thanks  indeed  -  excellent   work !


3  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Re: Provincial IP Masters on: December 26, 2017, 07:19:45 pm
Hi Inn  Bok

Thanks  for the  information

Happy  to see that    Ma  Baoku   (great  guy !)  and   Song Yiming (also  great guy and  my  all-time  VMIPB  hero!)
have  both  made the   Master Grade.

Dou  Meirong is  listed  in my  DB  but  I don't have  any   examples  of her   works - that's  no doubt  because  she  does enamel


4  The Gathering / The Lounge / Re: Merry Christmas everyone! on: December 24, 2017, 08:12:26 pm
Dear  All

I wish you  all a  very  Happy and  Blessed  Christmas

Peter  and  冰冰

PS:  I just  got a  Christmas   email  from Yuan Shijia  - written in almost perfect  English   Smiley
       Seems  HengShui  is  growing  up  fast.
       Yuan Shijia  said he  and his other  fellow-artists  miss  me  and  hope  I can  visit  HengShui   again soon
       In fact  I do plan to  go to  HengShui  some time  in  2018, especially  if  anyone  else  from the  Forum  would  like
       to  join me . Any takers ?
5  The Gathering / The Lounge / Re: Booted by the ICSBS on: December 06, 2017, 08:15:04 am
Hi  All

Someone  wrote :   "The last   (London Convention)  was 81 , but that is because London is expensive, and the dollar and Euro are weak"

It's true  that  London is  relatively  expensive  but it's  absolutely  untrue to  say that  "the dollar and Euro are weak."

In fact, what has  happened  since  Brexit  is  that the UK  pound has  dropped  in value  by  almost  20%  vs  both  the  Euro and the  US$ !    

 (Check  it  if you  don't believe  me)

I and my  wife   happened  to  stay  in  London  at exactly the  same  time as  the  recent  London   ICSBS convention together  with another  couple  who attended the  convention.  We  booked  an  airbnb apartment  at   Charing  Cross  - right  in the  very heart of  London  (and just a  stone's throw  away from the  London  hotel  where  the   convention  was  held)

We we  paid  only GBP310 per  night  total   for  a   HUGE  luxurious 2 x  bedroom/ 2 x  bathroom   newly decorated apartment  complete with HUGE  500  sq  ft  lounge  and  fully fitted  kitchen + washing machine and   dishwasher.

It was  the   equivalent  of  a  2 x bedroom  "president's  suite"   in  a  5- star  hotel - pristine condition and  we could  even cook   for ourselves  (in   fact we often  did)    Smiley

That  worked  out  at   GBP155  (=  US$200)  per  night  per  couple  =  US$ 100 per person per head

I  also  heard  on the  grapevine  that   several  other  convention  participants  found their  own accommodation  privately



PS:  I think the real  reason that membership  is  dropping  fast  is  the  same  reason  why  no-one  from the  ICSBS  ever   wrote to me   to ask  why  I    quietly  left the  society (by virtue of  simply  not renewing  my subscription)
My case  rests  m'lud.
6  The Gathering / The Lounge / Re: Booted by the ICSBS on: December 02, 2017, 11:34:03 am
Hi  Joey

I think  the   ICSBS  has  "lost  it"     - very  sad  to say

I  deliberately    did  not  renew  my subscription  for  2018  but there  was  never an  email  from  Berthe    (or  anyone )  as  to  WHY

In  fact  I was  in  London  at the   exact  time  of the  convention (sharing  an  airbnb  apartment   with some  ICSBS  members)     so  several  ICSBS  members  knew  I was  there    at the  time  ... bur  nairy   a   single  email

So sad....

BTW:  I will  be  visiting  Jerusalem    in  early  march  next    year  (2018)   - any chance  we  can meet ?  Please   reply  (if  you  wish)  by  personal  message


7  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Re: Calmness of a Lake on: November 25, 2017, 05:54:41 pm
Hi Pin

Lovely  bottle ! 

This  is  the  REAL  Zhang Yong,  glad to  say

As a  matter  of interest,  did  you  buy  these  bottles  and if so  what  did you  play (please  feel free to  reply by private  message)



PS:  If  you  ever  have   an interest to  visit  Hengshui I would be  happy to  coordinate with  you  and  we  go together.  I have  not been to  Hengshui  for a  long  time, ever  since  I retired  and  therefore  was  not   travelling regularly to north  China.  But  I  do plan to  visit  Hengshui  sometime  in   early- mid  2018.  (Same  invitation applies to  any  Forum members  living  in S. E. Asia)
8  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Re: Calmness of a Lake on: November 21, 2017, 05:47:57 pm
Hi  Rube,

Glad that the  pics  finally  were  OK. It  took  me  several  attempts  to  upload them (very  strange -  cos the  pics  after  compression  are each  less than 100 kB, and  all the other  pics  uploaded  OK)

I agree that  all  the  bottles  are  beautiful :  you can see the  bottle  I  bought  in the  3rd  and  4th  pics,  bottom row,  2nd  from the  right end.

The  reason I went to  Da  Yong's  home that  day (which  , by the  way  is  HUGE  -  about  5000  sq  ft,  and  filled   with  wall-to-wall,  floor-to-ceiling   art  books  :  Da  Yong  is  certainly  well off !)  was  that  I had joked  with  him  over  dinner  the  night  before  that "I  like  you  Da  Yong  very  much  ,  but  I  don't  like to buy  your  bottles  because  you  usually  don't  paint  Chinese  landscapes "

So  next  morning  he  called  me  and  asked  me to  visit  him  and  see  some of  his  latest  and  best  works,  some  of which  were  Chinese  landscapes.

I invite  comments  from others regarding  the  wide  variety  of styles and themes  among the  20 bottles. 

Also  comments  on the calligraphy.

Going  back to the  Liu  Jianghua  scam,  if  anyone  has the  Liu Jianghua  book which  was  published in Singapore  in about  2008 (Richard kindly  helped  me  buy a  copy, and  I have  scanned  it  into  my  DB) you will  probably  have  noticed  the  wide  variation of  themes and  styles  of the  bottles  :  much too wide  for  any  single artist  who, apart  from one  mention in  CIPMA, is a  complete  unknown.  I  reckon  the  bottles  in  that  book were  painted  by at  least  6 -7  different  artists,  most of whom were  top  student  ability according to the  skill  level  in the mid-late  2000s .

It  was  only when  I found  that some bottles  in  the Liu Jianghua  book were  exact duplicates  of  bottles  I had bought  via  a  Shanghai  dealer who   had close  links to  Da Yong that  I  realized the  scam.  Obviously  I had  bought practice  bottles  by the same   students  Da  Yong  had  employed to  paint  for  Liu Jianghua  (the bottles  I  bought  were  variously  signed :  some  even  "Jiang Hua"  and  one  actually "Liu Jianghua" !)

But the  extent  of the  scam  only  hit me  when I discussed  with  a noted  and very  trustworthy  Singapore  collector  who  told me  how  many  Liu Jianghua  bottles  had been  sold to  gullible   Singapore  collectors (over  5000 as I wrote before)
Even  sadder  was the  fact that  one of the  main sponsors  of the  Liu Jianghua  bottle  was a  Singapore  collector with whom I corresponded  a  lot in friendliness at that  time,  and  who  was  riddled  with cancer.  I can  imagine  his feelings  to  find out that  his  whole  collection (several  hundred)  of  Liu Jianghua  bottles  were scams.

Perhaps  this is  why  Da  Yong  has  now  turned  into a   Buddhist monk  because  he has  seen the error of  his ways and now hopes  to  'Yig'al' = "will Redeem" himself.
(Because  frankly,  what he  did  in the  past makes  me  feel     'Yiga'el' = "Will be Disgusted by!")  "


PS:  Nonetheless,  I  agree  that  the  couple  of  REAL  Da  Yong bottles in his  classic  style,  which  I bought  via  Jill Guojie,  are  beautiful. I also think that  the  bottle  Pin  posted  is  a  genuine  Da Yong (and  very beautiful) although  I'm not so sure  about the  others  in this  link.

9  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Re: Calmness of a Lake on: November 21, 2017, 07:20:26 am
Hi  Rube

You are right - the   20  bottle  pics  do not  open

But  all the  other pics  do  open OK , is that  correct?

I  attach  again the  4  pics  of  20  bottles


10  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Da Yong - Calmness of a Lake on: November 20, 2017, 06:59:34 pm
Hi  All,

Sorry to  be out of  circulation for  so long. I was  in UK visiting  my family  for  one  month (No  I did not  join the  ICSBS  convention, even though  I was  in London at the  same  time . I have  quietly  resigned  from the  ICSBS  - and  surprisingly  no-one  from the  ICSBS ever  wrote to me  to ask  why  .... or  perhaps  not so  surprisingly ?   )

The  bottle  posted  by  Pin looks  definitely  like  Da Yong to me :  the  way he  paints little "monk-like"  people  is very characteristic of his  typical  style.

On the  other  hand,  I agree that the 2  bottles  posted  by Mike  are a  new-ish  kind  of  style, although  I  have  seen  this style before  (if you  have  a  copy  of  my  DB  you  can find  examples )

But I  do find the  change  of  writing style  very  unusual.  In my experience,  artists   rarely  change their  writing styles

However,  please  do remember that  Da  Yong  (real  name  Zhang Yong)  participated  in one  of the  greatest  ever scams  in the past  -  whereby  he  either  he  signed  his name  on his  students' bottles,  or else  he  signed  other  artists' names  on his  students' bottles (!)

See  for example the  "great  Liu Jianghua"  scam  whereby   over  5,000  falsely- signed  bottles   were  sold to  some  gullible  collectors  in Singapore  in the  mid-late  2000s  under the  name of  Liu Jianghua (Yes I know that's  an unbelievably high number, but  it  was verified by various reliable  sources)

In fact I  myself  have  "smoking  gun"   examples  of  Da Yong  scam-signing "Liu Jianghua"  on his  students' bottles. I own several  bottles which  I know  for certain were  painted  by  Da  Yong  students  (they told me so -  e.g. Zhang Limin)  of which mirror-image  version  copies  appear  in  the  Liu Jianghua  book 

It's  very sad that this  happened  in the  past  because  it  gives  VMIPBs a  bad name.  No wonder   the  international  collecting community, especially the  ICSBS members  are reluctant to  invest  in VMIPBs

It also  leaves  one  with a  "nasty  feeling" that  if one  has  bought   some  Da  Yong bottles (as I have done), even  directly  from  Da  Yong  himself, they  may not  actually  be  painted  by him.

Two examples  from my own personal  experience :

1. I  once  bought  an very  unusual  "western landscape /  oil painting"  style  bottle  by Zhang  Yong   from David Osborne .  It was not  cheap (I paid   US$460  for it  in one of  David's  auctions).  I know for certain  that  David  always  bought in good  faith  and I have  David's  certificate  issued  by  WXS  verifying  that  the  bottle  was  painted  by Zhang  Yong,  and the  bottle  is indeed  (almost  microscopically)  signed Zhang Yong  in the  middle  of a  tree  trunk - see  pics  attached.  But  when  I once  casually  showed the  bottle  to Da  Yong  he  denied  ever  painting it !

2. The  very last  time  I ever  met  Da Yong was  in 2014   and I  went to his  home  to see  some of  his  "latest  bottles".  At the  time  I was  not  as wise  as I  (hope  I )  am now,  so when  he  showed  me  20 lovely  bottles all  painted  in a   very wide variety of  styles  and  themes  I was  (naively)  amazed and  full of  admiration. But looking back  I now  believe that  many  - if  not  most of - those  bottles  were  painted  by  other  artists, because  very few of them were typical  Da  Yong  style. See  the  attached   4 x  pics and  judge for  yourself.

In particular, one bottle  struck me  as  truly  beautiful  - it was  an abstract  landscape, which  I bought (and it was  not  cheap : I paid RMB20K ) . It's  now  bottle #P325 in my  collection

By a  very  strange coincidence  I was looking at an art  book by a famous  abstract  artist :  Zhang  Daqian  a  few  years later  and  saw - to my utter  astonishment - the  same   painting   as on the  A-side  of  my   P325 bottle .  See  the attached  pics  and  judge for yourself !

Also judge  for yourself  if the  signature is  Da  Yong's .

It is  of course possible that this bottle is by  Da Yong, but that he  copied the  A-side  from  Zhang  Daqian (the  B-side  is a  kind  of  "variation on a  theme"  of the  A-side ).  But  I think you  will  agree that  the  style  is  not  Da  Yong's, so a  more  likely  explanation is   that  a student  copied  from Zhang  Daqian and  then  Da  Yong signed  his name  on the  bottle.

Caveat emptor !


11  Public Forum Categories and Boards / 中国现代内画艺术家网站 Websites of Modern Chinese Inside Painted Artists / 欢迎艺术家们发布网站地址和博&a / Re: Master Li Yingtao 李英涛大师 on: November 13, 2017, 12:24:58 pm
Hi  All

These  bottles  by Li Yingtao  are  the  same  wonderful style   that  I saw  in 2014  when the  ICSBS  annual  convention  visited  Zhang Tieshan's new  studio  in Xian .

According  to what I heard,  Li  Yingtao  was the  first "serious" (and certainly the  most  senior)  Ji  school  artist  to  join  ZTS  at the  new  Qin  school.

Since  2014  some Ji  artists  who moved to  Xian   in 2012-2103  have returned  to  Shijiazhuang  or  Hengshui (e.g. Song Yiming, Ma Baoku) but  as  far  as  know  Li Yingtao  is  still  in Xian

I wanted  to  buy  one of his  bottles  in 2014  but the  official  price  was  too  high for me


12  Public Forum Categories and Boards / Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles / Early, Middle and Modern Period Bottles 内画鼻烟壶/早期,中期,现代 / Re: 2 x Zhou Leyuan bottles ? on: October 30, 2017, 10:32:22 am
Hi  Adrian

I am  now  in London   and  staying  with  a  Chinese   expert on  antique  IPBs.

He  said,  without  hesitation,   that  :

1. The  bottles  are  genuine  antique

2.  However,  neither  bottle  is  by   THE  Zhou  Leyuan  -  both  are  painted  by a  different  artist   who has  signed "Zhou  Leyuan"



13  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Re: Zhen Yu on: October 28, 2017, 02:51:41 pm
Hi Jason

I don't  own that  SYM  eagle  bottle .  I  got the  pic  off  a  website  (or  book -  I forget)

It's  in my  huge  data   base  of  VMIPB  pics

I originally  lived  in  UK  until  1981  when  I moved to  HK  / China  for the  rest of my  life

I happen to  be  in UK this  month  until  8  Nov  on  holiday  to  visit  my   relatives  here


14  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Re: Zhen Yu on: October 26, 2017, 02:31:02 am
Hi  Charll, Tom

I like the  eagles  bottle - especially  the  black and  white.  One  of  Song Yiming's  classic  bottles  is very  similar (see  attached)

I'm sure  Geoff  can tell  us  exactly  which  bird  book  these bottles  are  copied   from !

I agree  with you  about   figures  distracting  one  in landscape  paintings.  I find the  same  aso  about  houses  which   many artists  like to  include (I  really  don't  know  why  because  often  the  houses  seem out of  scale  compared to the  background)

Su  Fengyi  often  paints  houses  into  his  landscapes  and I think that in almost  every case  they   lower  the  beauty  of his  bottles

Zhen Yu has  done the  same  in the  bottle  you  show  below,  Charll.

But  anyway  - each to his own taste !


Peter (now  in Scotland  at Glen Coe - heading  for London this  weekend)

15  Public Forum Categories and Boards / IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) / Re: Zhen Yu on: October 21, 2017, 01:21:58 am
Hi All

David  Osborne  bought  all his  bottles  in the  early  2000s ,  so it's  quite  likely some were  signed  Yuan Zheng

David  also had very  close  contact  with Pan Jiafang / Yu Zhen  so  it's  impossible  that  he  would  have a  sold  a  bottle  by  another  artist  under the name  of  Pan  Jiafang

Anyway,  as  Richard  has  now  confirmed, Yuan Zheng  is  an  early  art  name  of  Pan Jiafang

BTW:  lovely bottle  Tom !



PS:  Joey   - for  artist correct  names  and  art  names, both  pinyin  and  chinese  characters  - please  do use  the  data  base  I sent  you !     That's  what it's there  for  !
16  Miscellaneous / Special Events, and Snuff Bottle News / Re: Singapore Snuff Bottle Group on: October 19, 2017, 02:36:05 am
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh  !

Wish  I was  there  too ! Sultan  fish.....  Mmmmmmmmmmmmm

My wife  and I  once  stayed  at Kevin's  Eco  resort  hotel for a  few nights  -  wonderful  swimming  pool !

But beware  of the   home-grown  chillies in  the  roof  garden  (ask  Kevin about  it  !)

Will  anyone  from S'Pore   be  at the  ICSBS  London  convention ?

I will be  in London at that  time with my wife from  1 - 8  Nov ,  sharing  an  airbnb  apartment  with  Jill  and  Li Hui.  But  we  will not  attend the  convention

My UK  mobile  number  is   0 - 740- 431- 2121  if anyone  wants  to  contact  me  for a  lunch  or  dinner  when there  is a  free  slot  in the  Convention  program


17  Miscellaneous / Special Events, and Snuff Bottle News / Re: Meeting with Steven in China on: September 05, 2017, 09:23:32 pm
Hi Richard, Steven,

Great  news !

BTW  if  ever  anyone passes  through  HK  please  do  get in contact  with me

In two weeks  time  Bill  Patrick  will  be in HK  so  we  will  at last  get to meet  each  other :  I regard  Bill  as  my  mentor  and we  have  exchanged  emails  for  over  10 years


18  The Gathering / The Lounge / Re: Nothing to do with snuff bottles but still worth sharing on: August 28, 2017, 08:11:03 am
Hi Joey

Love ya !


19  The Gathering / The Lounge / Nothing to do with snuff bottles but still worth sharing on: August 27, 2017, 11:18:49 pm
Hi  All



Peter  on a  Beach Boys  high
20  Public Forum Categories and Boards / Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles / Early, Middle and Modern Period Bottles 内画鼻烟壶/早期,中期,现代 / Re: Wang Ru Ting on: August 22, 2017, 09:12:24 pm
Hi All

Wang Ruting is  now  in the    DB


PS:  Typhoon  No 10  today in HK   so   lots  of  time to   tidy  up the  DB  with   stuff from the  Forum !
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