Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

What a treat today was !

Charll and his Wife Donna drove up from their Son's house in Moscow Idaho where they were visiting for Christmas.. About a two hour drive to my house..

Charll brought with him two cases full of a wonderful variety of bottles to share. A little bit of everything !

It was the most bottles I have had in front of me at any one given time. Not only were there a wide variety, but all were really exceptional. Among those I got to handle were his recently posted Yue Fei Chinese hero (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,569.0.html) bottle, the miniature Shanghai school style landscape (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,543.0.html) bottle, the stunning rutiliated golden tourmaline quartz goose scene (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,543.msg2884.html#msg2884) bottle, as well another heavily rutiliated black tourmaline quartz bottle. Both of these were stunning examples of high quality rutiliated quartz bottles. I doubt will hold another for quite some time.

He brought three very rare and old Japanese Lac Burgaute bottles. His personal favorites.. A very rare old, and extremely detailed red on white porcelain bottle. I have viewed a great many blue on white bottles online. I have never seen this kind of detail accomplished glazing before. Truly exceptional, and one of his favorites.

As well, a very old, and yes.. , again.. rare like most of his bottles, a natual miniature gourd bottle. Possibly the oldest of the bottles he brought along.

These were some of the highlights, and the list goes on..

For my first time get together with another collector, the experience of this visit with Charll will remain especially memorable. Being a novice collector, I was a bit nervous about getting together with a long time collector for the first time. Those nervous feelings disappeared quickly !

Charll also sparked a little more interest in me towards putting me at ease a bit about possibly attending the Portland convention.

He left as a gift Hugh Moss's fourth edition of Chinese Snuff Bottles with me.. Of which I will be sharing more about later on forum.. One of which is a different perspective on how best to use seal marks in regards to researching/referencing artist, and a super nice Chou Lo yuan article, and bottle examples.

Any way... Thanks again Charll and Donna for a wonderful day  :)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1181.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx439%2FSnuffbottle1%2Fcharll2.jpg&hash=6d36ec05e76890d9992b56350cdb006f)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1181.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx439%2FSnuffbottle1%2FCharll1.jpg&hash=727baadba75ae74017119caac9e1cefd)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1181.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx439%2FSnuffbottle1%2Fcharll3.jpg&hash=47a93ff6eb94288e07688e6d0143e224)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1181.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx439%2FSnuffbottle1%2Fcharll4.jpg&hash=3f2bb4ad7f14a76a9b7e4aa81b65d9e6) 

 

 

what a fun day, I wish I can join you guys.

Hi George

Which is  you and  which is  Charll?

Cheers  Peter

I'm the guy on the left with the big smile on my face  ;D

Hi all,

That was certainly your lucky day George, having Charll visit you with a hands-on Museum-collection of so many bottles. Wow! I looked at the photos before reading the whole story and Charll's bottles are sumptuous.  My attention was immediately drawn to the red (enameled?) porcelain bottle with an Imperial mark in underglaze blue. Very rare indeed and you are very privileged to have been able to inspect it first-hand.  (Is my envy showing?  :) )  I am sure that you could have used a few days to fully appreciate that many high quality bottles.

 I am tentatively planning on attending the next ICSBS convention in Portland 2012, so maybe we can have a forum members get-together there.   

Yes indeed... some very very nice bottles.  Thanks for sharing these pics!  And a nice opportunity to meet face to face instead of writing and communicating here.  Nothing replaces face to face contact and dialogue.

Hi Tom  ( and  all )

GREAT  that  you  have  joined  the  ICSBS    maybe  will  even attend  the   2012   convention  in Portland

I  am  at heart  a  universalist    and  I  embrace  everyone   as long  they  don't  tell me  NOT  to  embrace  them

I am  rocking a  few  things  in the  ICSBS   in the  best   and  most positive   way  I  can ( kicked  off  by   joining the   WXS  Museum  opening  in May  2011   which  Berthe  and  Jo0hn  Ford,  and  the  Hardys    all  attended)

My  objective  is  to  bring the  ICSBS  into  this  forum  as  actively  as  you,   and  many others  are  so  doing

I may not  be  the  most  tactful  person in the  world  but   dammit  I  have  persistence    and   water  wins  over  stone

This  may not  be  to the  liking  of  ( some)   dealers   who  have   self  - abrogated    the  privilege  of    declaring  what  is  good  and  what is  not  good  in the    snuff bottle  world ,  but  snuff bottle  collecting  is  all about  COLLECTORS   not  dealers

And there  is  always  a  role  for    honest  dealers   in any collecting  hobby

I look forward  to  great things  in 2012 !

CHEERS     Peter

You know what Tom.. ?

You are 100% correct !

Guys,
 Re-reading the thread, some people might not realise which one was George and which one was Charll. "Guy on the left..." Whose left George, yours or ours?  George is the one wearing the baseball cap, by process of elimination, since I know Charll from meeting him at the 2007 ICSBS Toronto Con, and the 2011 ICSBS Palm Beach Con. Charll you didn't get to 2010 ICSBS Honolulu Con, did you?

  Charll,
   Where did you get those 4 across, 3 down padded boxes for 12 ?
I've only ever seen 5 across, 2 down boxes for 10; 5 across boxes for 5; single padded boxes; and, very rarely, 2 across double boxes.

Shabbat Shalom,
  Joey

Joey,

Thanks for clearing up who is who. There are only two ways to read it, and I read it wrong!

By the way, I have a 4 x 3 padded box just like that. I wanted to know where you buy all the other sizes! I had a hunt around Beijing once, but without success.

Tom

Tom,
  I commissioned Guo Jie (Jill & Li Hui) to order boxes for me, 10 bottle boxes and five bottle boxes. The singles, I have a lot of at home. It used to be that if you bought a snuff bottle from a dealer, they gave it to you in a single bottle box.
  I'm sure Guo Jie can order some singles as well.
Joey

Tom, That is why I wrote it. I reread the thread, and even knowing Charll for years by sight, I got confused by the post. And especially since one is wearing a baseball cap, and one not - you'd figure that would be an easy way to clarify things
(At least to me; I DO have Asperger's Syndrome, albeit a mild case), so I added my 'two cents'.
Joey

Joey,

The 12 bottle boxes were picked up off Ebay.   An Ebay dealer in Florida either commissioned or somehow acquired a bunch (hundreds) of contemporary IPBs that are being sold.  It appears these bottles were shipped over in the 12 compartment boxes.  Not having any use for the boxes once the bottles are sold, the dealer was then offering the boxes on Ebay.  They are used and some have depressed padding due to long term bottle storage, but they functioning just fine for my bottles and were only costing $20/box or a little less, depending on the bids at the time.

In the last week or so, one of the Chinese Ebay dealers was offering up I believe 10 bottle (5X2) boxes. 

Charll

Charll,
   I ordered 22 10 bottle boxes and 22 5 bottle boxes from Guo Jie (Jill) from Beijing. You wouldn't believe the hassle with shipping, customs and clearing, till I got them home to Jerusalem.
Thanks for the info.
Joey

Joey,

I had to smile when I read your last post. One of the reasons you probably had so much trouble with customs and clearing, is that customs officials are trained to think differently from ordinary folks like you and I.

A naturally suspicious bunch of people (or 'shits' as you prefer to call them), they honestly cannot fathom why anyone in their right mind would ship EMPTY boxes! You must have had them scratching their heads wondering where the real "goods" were hidden. They probably spent some time analyzing the boxes for traces of heroin, etc. before reluctantly releasing them!   ;D

Tom

Yes.. Like Charll mentioned... These do pop up on eBay quite often..  :)

George, Charll and Joey,

Thanks for your input on where to source the padded boxes. My first choice would have been Guo Jie, until I read about the problems of getting them shipped. Mind you, I would risk the same problem from eBay if the sender is shipping to me from the US.  :'(

Tom

Tom,
  I never thought about that!  I explained that I was a collector of these Chinese snuff bottles, and sent a catalogue to the Customs, to show them what would be inside, as well.
  My first job lot of boxes, 45 10-bottle boxes covered in a Song Dynasty pattern silk brocade, I got from YF Yang in 1990. I ended up re-routing the whole lot to Ireland, since the bast--- in Israeli Customs was so difficult. I had no problems in Ireland. 
  My second job lot, 22 10-bottle boxes and 22 5-bottle boxes, I had sent to Israel c/o my lawyer, so he could have a clerk clear them. He directed them to me, and it was a bit easier.
  Unless you've someone to make them in Thailand, you've not really got a choice. They are the most secure way to store snuff bottles. I tried in Israel, through my friend Haj Bilal abu Khalaf, but as my best friend, Khalil Khalidi said, Arabs are no match for Chinese in fine work. Few people are, it seems.
Joey

Yes, but who really wants to store them in boxes? I want them displayed.  So I use a sort of blue tack (although white and yellow) that is quite resilient to shocks.   

  Pat,
   Mr. YF Yang taught me that Westerners and non-scholarly Asians like to display all their snuff bottles, like they put all their paintings on their walls.

  Scholarly Asians display one scroll or painting in a room at a time, and change it when they want inspiration from a different one. And they keep their snuff bottles and other small art objects in fitted boxes, making an effort to view a small group at a time. The effort one makes to view them, contributes to the pleasure one has on viewing them. And you don't get jaded or bored with them.

  It was YF's argument that we don't really look and examine stuff on our walls after 6-8 months; it is there, we know it's there, it's not going anywhere, so no need to 'waste' brain cells looking carefully at it each time we pass it.

 A new object stimulates our brain more, and we examine it. Seeing a snuff bottle with 'fresh' eyes, is conducive to learning more about it.

  Thanks to this Forum and all of you, I've looked more often and closer at the treasures I own, in the last 7 months, than in the previous 12 years (from my late mom's getting sick in 2000, when I started taking care of her full-time).

  Thank you all again, from the bottom of my heart!

Joey

Joey

What you say makes sense, but I like to compare/contrast all the time.  And this allows me to do so better, quicker and easier.  I do assume the risk of accidents and breakage. 

Although, in China now, many collectors truly display their bottles or Netsuke.

Pat,
   I accept what you say, and being Western (Asian! ;)), I do have multiple objects on display in each room in my home,
but would you say that the present-day collectors in east Asia are 'scholarly' collectors? I doubt YF Yang would.
Joey

Agree, they like to 'show' or 'show off' (the latter not always though, dont want to leave the wrong impression here).  Peter would agree. Not sure if Steven and Walter see it the same way, living in the US with Chinese heritage.  I am curious...

Joey,
   That is an interesting concept about selective viewing of one's treasures. I had not heard it before. I simply, and wrongly, assumed that most Chinese collectors simply didn't have the space to display everything at the same time! A bit like the British Museum only showing 10% of its collection, while 90% sits in storage in the basement.
Tom

Tom,
  Make the same experiment in your home, that YF Yang had me do in mine.
Take a room in your home, and, without going in, list what is on the walls, and the relative size (use an A-4 page as your 'measure'), and details of the individual artworks. Then try to remember the last time you did more than gaze on it as you entered, left or were in the room.
 Mr. Yang's argument was that, after a few months, we tend to 'know' the stuff is there, and barely look at it. It is 'old' visually.
  Now, take out a bottle you've had in a box for a month or two, or an object you've only owned a month or two. Don't you look at it with 'new eyes' (so to speak)?
 It was a facinating and 'eye-opening' experience for me. Hope it helps you enrich your collecting, as well.
Joey

Joey,

YF Yang gave you good advice. That is so true about the art objects we have in our homes.

In the case of snuff bottles, at least in the case of functionable ones, we can take this idea a step further: carry around one chosen bottle for day; then on another day pick a different one and carry it with you. By handling these little treasures we can appreciate them with our fingers as well as our eyes. This way, even bottles I have had for years take on a new 'perspective'.

Tom

Tom,
  That would be a great suggestion, if I wasn't dispraxic ( a fancy way of saying clumsy). I used to carry a bottle around at times, till I dropped a valuable (to me then; today I know I lost a mediocre US$200 bottle) Jade bottle which cracked on the hard Israeli tile floor, embarrassing me and the person I was trying to show it to. :-\ :(
Joey

Joey,
  Ouch......that's too bad. There are always bottles made of organic materials, like wood and gourd, which may be a little more forgiving when accidentally dropped.

Tom

Tom,
    Believe me, today I see it as a warning from Above. It was a pity but not the end of the world.
     Even if it had not broken in 1974, from Nov. 1980 it would have been out of my collection (In Nov. 1980, after returning from the New Orleans Convention, I went through my collection, weeding out anything I decided was not good enough quality or condition to remain. I flew the 34 bottles (out of 98 I'd had) to London, and bunged 'em into Sotheby's London. 
     One, a modern Lapis, I brought back, and gave to my mom as a gift, after commissioning a wonderful Armenian jeweler, Kevork Panikian, to make a necklace with a pendant (which held the bottle, and had a hinged top bit, so the stopper could be withdrawn), copying a design I'd done in thin copper wire. 32 bottles were divided into 2 groups of 16 and sold in a furniture auction in Torquay (I've written elsewhere about this); and the last one was sold in London, and fetched almost 3 times what I'd expected).
 But thank you for the good thoughts,
Joey

That looks like great fun.I would love to have such an encounter with another collector some day.

Dear Talya/Tayla (which is it, so we can address you correctly?),

     On which continent do you reside? We have fellow collectors on the Forum in East and West Asia, Europe, North America and Australia.

     So far, I have visited fellow Forum members in Italy; Hong Kong; Bangkok; Singapore; and TX, LA, OR, NY, in the USA. It has been a lot of fun, and I've learned a lot and shared my knowledge as well (try to shut me up!  :D ;D).  I have also visited many friends who are collectors and members of the ICSBS.
   
    These were in Australia, South Africa, Brazil, USA, Canada, the Far East (see above, and add Taipei), and Europe (see above and add, Belgium, France, Spain, Turkey).

    Best,
     Joey

Dear Joey,

Love to see someone try that...

 :D

Kidding aside, I do appreciate all that I've learned from you.

David

Dear David,
    Sharing knowledge is a trait of successful cultures, countries and people.
Judaism and Israel are both successful, as are Western cultures, when they don't let themselves be 'hogtied' by those screaming 'islamophobia' every moment.
Best,
 Joey