Title: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: George on November 03, 2011, 02:02:45 am I think this is just another example of this forum needing to experience some change, and adjust a bit once again.. ;)
Changes that will hopefully result in making some collectors more at ease towards sharing their knowledge and expertise among other avid collectors. Collectors that at this point I am suspecting are not be willing to do so on a forum viewable to the public. As an example, some present members have been posting some valuable.., and well.., important information specifically related to student artists, and possible pen/art name associations. There is also some very valuable information related to Early, Middle, and Modern Period IP bottles. These boards would be accessable only to "Actively Participating" members with an interest ( novice or expert ) about any Period IP bottles. A collector does not have to be an IP bottle expert by any means to join in this part of the forum. Otherwise, I would have to exclude myself right off the bat ! :D I want to block three boards from the public. 1) IP Artists of the Very Modern Period ( 1990 to Present ) 2) Facts We Learn About Pen Names Verses Actual Artists Names 3) Inside Painted Bottles / Early, Middle and Modern Period Bottles I am not totally convinced doing this will bring some of the forums valued collectors back on board, and or bring some new collectors to the forum, but am very curious to see if it might. If I am on track with this thinking, then member pariticipation/replies about this will be a contributing factor in deciding if this is a good idea .. I could be way off base, so going to leave this open for replies to see if anyone is interested in commenting. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on November 03, 2011, 03:40:00 am George
You are not off base, and you and I have had several discussions about this. I DO believe there is not enough contribution from others, AND I have gotten very hesitant about posting new information. Also as you know, I have had my own policy of no longer posting pictures of items off my own collection. I am and was just no longer comfortable about the web crawlers and lurkers but within and outside this forum. I am sorry, I do not mean to offend anyone, but indeed the information being shared in the categories that you referred to is indeed valuable and important, and is built up from our collections, and discussions with many others, dealers, artists, etc. This information is often not even available anywhere else, not in books and not on the web. IF it were available the books and databases would be/could very expensive and difficult to obtain. As such I fully agree and am a staunch and fervent supporters of this change! Finally, I wholeheartedly agree that IF forum members seek access to the private sections, they should be monitored for their contributions and participation. In other words, be a real part of the group or leave...Sorry. Thanks! Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on November 03, 2011, 08:47:47 am Hi George, Pat ( and anyone else in on this discussion)
Personally I vote to keep the whole Forum open just as it is . If it ain't broke - don't fix it Participants will only share what they are willing to share openl, and I think that the more that is shared openly the better eg I have offered my data base free of charge to any serious collector and so far I have sent out about 10 copies worldwide on memory sticks ( but so far, to my disappointment, no-one has sent me pics of their collections in return to add the the DB , the sole exception being Bill Patrick who has put his entire collection on the www in a beautiful format, which is why I respect Bill so much) It takes a lot of research to untangle all the alternate pen names so every contribution is useful , and I created my DB with the sole objective of helping new collectors find their way through the MIPB jungle Things are made even more complicated ( if that's even possible) by the facts that : a) many Modern IPB artists seem to explode into life , bloom for a very few years, and then vanish completely, so every collection starting with J. H . Leung's, then Bill's, then Pat's, then mine ( as just a typical sample over 30 years , just mentioning the collectors I know well or - in the case of J. H Leung - know of) is just a snapshot of the bottles created during the collector's most enthusiastic period of collecting b) some MIPB collectors are very secretive and never share their collections. I know one such collector in HK of this kind . Such collectors have the right to their total privacy . c) some older MIPB artists seem to get a second wind and start producing THE most amazing work late in life ( eg Fu Guo Shun) so one can never write off an older artist. But on the other hand , other well-known MIPB artists just go stale and turn out increasingly boring work with almost zero artistic merit d) some older artists even let their students paint bottles, then the senior artist signs his name. (At the Wang Xisan Beijing Museum opening I had some long conversations with the Singapore collectors who had ardently been collecting the latest works of one very senior artist, only to find that when they got together and added up the number of bottles they had all bought each year, they realized there was NO possible way that senior artist could have painted so many bottles ergo he had been signing on his students' bottles ..... ugh !) So I vote to keep the Forum as it is. After all it's just early days ! And if there are some matters we prefer to keep private, we can easily go off-line and use private email, as you know I frequently have done on matters which I don't like to share openly Well... that's my 10 cents worth Cheers Peter PS : Sorry I have not been active of late. I have had a lot to do at work these past months, and I need my salary to support my bottle-buying habit . But I have in the meantime picked up some AMAZING bottles, including some from Jill ( Guo Jie)'s latest catalogue by virtue of going to her BJ shop before the catalogue was even published and snapping up the bottles which I loved the most ( Beware : no matter how much effort goes into preparing a catalogue - and Jill's 2011 catalogue is her best ever / superbly produced - some bottles look much better in real life than any catalogue photograph, and similarly some bottles look much worse in real life than in a catalogue/ photo/ jpg . As an example - I bought one bottle from Jill this year that the artist himself had offered me 2 years earlier, but I declined at the time, even though he sent me a very hi-Q jpg ) Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on November 03, 2011, 08:56:55 am it is broke... and it needs to be fixed. there are 2-3 people talking and contributing here for the world, the lurkers, the crawlers, and everyone else. if that is your idea for 'not broke' ok... but then it can be 'not broke' without me. that is fine by me. no more for me unless it changes. no fixin' needed...
PS. no need to go offline and try to convince me. i want everyone to see this exchange Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: George on November 03, 2011, 09:09:05 am If I am on track with this thinking, then member pariticipation/replies about this will be a contributing factor in deciding if this is a good idea .. I could be way off base, so going to leave this open for replies to see if anyone is interested in commenting. Remember... I am interested in, and look forward to everyones comments. We don't have to agree just yet, but really do want everyone to be comfortable with sharing how they feel.. There are valid points to both sides of this. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on November 03, 2011, 09:20:36 am I agree with you George but until this gets resolved, I am removing all my posts relating to my own collection. And Peter, for your info, YOUR collection is also not on YOUR database for the very same reason as some of the rest of us: time, quality, methods, etc... I promised you that if and when I have the pics you will have them for the DB, and I intend to stick to that.
PS. I have seen some of my pics (which i removed from the gallery) appear online in for sale ads. Maybe some of you don't mind, but clearly I do. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on November 03, 2011, 09:20:47 am Pat, George et al
I stick with my view : It ain't broke so don't fix it These are very early days indeed ( barely a year since the Forum was set up by George, if I am not mistaken) and personally I think it's the best thing since sliced bread, even though far from perfect I am close to retirement and preparing a hand-over package to my successor. When I review my business performance over the past 25 years I am horrified at what a total asshole I was in my early days and astonished that I kept my job ( in fact I'm the only manager still surviving from that mid 1980's era , by many years : all the other managers of that era were obviously bigger assholes because they were fired ages ago, as were their successors, and their successors's successors ) But I persisted ( and adapted, and learnt as I went along) So I say , George, GO FOR IT . For every member who opts out, two more will eventually come in . I'm certainly IN for the good, the bad and the ugly :D Cheers Peter Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on November 03, 2011, 09:33:15 am Hi Pat
Really - bottles which you posted pics of have been on sale by others? How can that be unless someone has very cleverly copied them ? True - my own collection is not in my DB, but only because when I do get round to photographing my collection I want to do it properly, which I think is a 3 month full - time job after I retire. ( I have taken over 1,000 test shots of a range of different bottles so far to try and optimise my technique) Likewise : I intend to catalogue every bottle properly with details of when/ where/ price bought and current estimated value ( but that will not go into the open DB) Cheers Peter ( off to bed ) Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: George on November 03, 2011, 09:42:42 am I agree with you George but until this gets resolved, I am removing all my posts relating to my own collection. Might be easier to hold off a bit. If we create a private member area, I can easily move any posts you want off the public forum and into that private area. Will leave it up to you.. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on November 03, 2011, 09:50:54 am Peter
Get real. This is the virtual world. People will take pics from anyone and from anywhere to sell to anyone. They don't copy the bottle, they just want a quick buck and run off by using the pics as bait, if and when they can get away with it. My advice.... watermark every pic that you post online anywhere. On the pics of 'our' collections, we are obviously in agreement and under the same or similar constraints. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: George on November 03, 2011, 09:53:56 am Tell ya what guys..
Am going to set up a private area.. You will see it, but it will not be active. It is the easiest way to me to wrap my head around how to best make it work. Just sort of play with it for a bit and see just exactly what feels right and what does not. So hang in there, and let me see what or rather how to organize things a bit so everyone is comfortable with posting what ever they are willing to share. Be that for the public to view, or in private to be shared with certain members allowed in.. Not sure where this is going just yet, but no harm in tyring to sort it out.. Still looking for comments from other members ;) Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on November 03, 2011, 10:16:29 am Hi All
I suggest we cool off a couple of days Sure - a private area for hi -res picture postings makes a lot of sense If anyone wants to put a pic on the public area he can do it at low- res and/or with a watermark embedded But I think open discussion / info- sharing should remain public Cheers Peter Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: udornthara on November 03, 2011, 10:21:41 am Hi George, Pat ( and anyone else in on this discussion) Personally I vote to keep the whole Forum open just as it is . If it ain't broke - don't fix it Participants will only share what they are willing to share openl, and I think that the more that is shared openly the better eg I have offered my data base free of charge to any serious collector and so far I have sent out about 10 copies worldwide on memory sticks ( but so far, to my disappointment, no-one has sent me pics of their collections in return to add the the DB , the sole exception being Bill Patrick who has put his entire collection on the www in a beautiful format, which is why I respect Bill so much) It takes a lot of research to untangle all the alternate pen names so every contribution is useful , and I created my DB with the sole objective of helping new collectors find their way through the MIPB jungle Things are made even more complicated ( if that's even possible) by the facts that : a) many Modern IPB artists seem to explode into life , bloom for a very few years, and then vanish completely, so every collection starting with J. H . Leung's, then Bill's, then Pat's, then mine ( as just a typical sample over 30 years , just mentioning the collectors I know well or - in the case of J. H Leung - know of) is just a snapshot of the bottles created during the collector's most enthusiastic period of collecting b) some MIPB collectors are very secretive and never share their collections. I know one such collector in HK of this kind . Such collectors have the right to their total privacy . c) some older MIPB artists seem to get a second wind and start producing THE most amazing work late in life ( eg Fu Guo Shun) so one can never write off an older artist. But on the other hand , other well-known MIPB artists just go stale and turn out increasingly boring work with almost zero artistic merit d) some older artists even let their students paint bottles, then the senior artist signs his name. (At the Wang Xisan Beijing Museum opening I had some long conversations with the Singapore collectors who had ardently been collecting the latest works of one very senior artist, only to find that when they got together and added up the number of bottles they had all bought each year, they realized there was NO possible way that senior artist could have painted so many bottles ergo he had been signing on his students' bottles ..... ugh !) So I vote to keep the Forum as it is. After all it's just early days ! And if there are some matters we prefer to keep private, we can easily go off-line and use private email, as you know I frequently have done on matters which I don't like to share openly Well... that's my 10 cents worth Cheers Peter PS : Sorry I have not been active of late. I have had a lot to do at work these past months, and I need my salary to support my bottle-buying habit . But I have in the meantime picked up some AMAZING bottles, including some from Jill ( Guo Jie)'s latest catalogue by virtue of going to her BJ shop before the catalogue was even published and snapping up the bottles which I loved the most ( Beware : no matter how much effort goes into preparing a catalogue - and Jill's 2011 catalogue is her best ever / superbly produced - some bottles look much better in real life than any catalogue photograph, and similarly some bottles look much worse in real life than in a catalogue/ photo/ jpg . As an example - I bought one bottle from Jill this year that the artist himself had offered me 2 years earlier, but I declined at the time, even though he sent me a very hi-Q jpg ) Hi Peter, As one of the recipients of your superb memory stick data bases, I would like to take his opportunity of thanking you once again but this time on this forum for that great piece of work. As you know I did send you pictures of my very limited collection of IPS's but I am sorry to hear that others let you down by not doing so. It really is a wonderful piece of work, on which you must have dedicated an enormous amount of time and I feel my limited knowledge on the subject and your input regarding my own bottles has been vastly enriched by your input. So thanks again! John. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: George on November 03, 2011, 10:32:44 am I suggest we cool off a couple of days Sounds good to me too.. :) I'm off to bed.. Been up to long.. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: hlbb on November 03, 2011, 03:21:38 pm Sorry guys for coming on board of this discussion so late, last couple of weeks have been crazy.
Personally I agreed with Peter to leave the forum as it was. My personal experience was that I accidentally stumbled into this place and found a sea worth of information and a group of enthusiasts. That is the motivation for me to post and share information. I think it is important for us to dissimulate as much information as possible to the general public, especially for the newer artists. We do want more people to know about the works we collect, good for the value department, right? ;) For the older artists, I think most information about them is out there somewhere. Most of the discussions are probably related to authentication of their works. Again, I think the liver the discussion the better. Just my two cents as a relatively newcomer. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: George on November 03, 2011, 06:53:31 pm Thanks Walter.. , and nice to see you ! :)
Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on November 03, 2011, 08:22:23 pm John,
Sorry - I forgot that you did indeed send me good pics and that was very decent of you Also Walter : you did likewise , for which many thanks indeed I am second guessing when I say the following : I get the feeling you are at the stage in your collecting where you have a couple of dozen beautiful bottles and your collection has stayed at that level for the past couple of years, just as I was in 2006 - 2008 ( and the same with collecting matchboxes in my infant years) . But then suddenly the collecting bug will attack you and a couple of dozen grows to a couple of hundred as you develop a taste for certain styles and artists . At least that's what happened with me ! Beware ! Everyone : please don't think I begrudge sharing my DB with very little feedback - in fact just the opposite. I created the DB as a way to "spread the word" and the more copies that are circulated gratis the better. When I retire and if I ever have the time, and if Bill agrees, we will put the whole thing on line forever on Bill's website in a secure server so it will never be lost But having the DB on line vs in one's hard disc are two completely different matters until roaming download speeds increase . Time and time again I'm in a shop or talking with an artist and want to pull up a pic instantly from my lap top , which I can easily do from my DB . But not so easy on-line when a 3 MB pic takes a couple of minutes to download, and one wants to scan a dozen such pics to find the right one The DB is currently 7 GB ( it takes my super-fast lap top several seconds just to count the files) and by the time I finish it will be 15 - 20 GB . I will issue the next major update in late 2013 BTW : in the course of my time I have put out many feelers / hooks. Every so often one catches a big fish eg a) yesterday I got an email totally out of the blue from a painter called Zhang Lei ( CIPMA 260/261) . I met this guy in 2010 at a dinner with Wang Guanyu in Heng Shui, but did not realise that WGY is his UNCLE ! He is based in SH and holds exhibitions about once per year with full cataloge. Next week I am in SH so I will surely find time to meet him b) I have had a very sporadic correspondence with a French dealer in antique IPBs called Laurence Souksi. Suddenly he sends me an email just after returning from the ICSBS convention in Palm Beach with a load of useful feedback and network info ( and he may soon join the Forum) This Forum is all about NETWORKING . That's why it's so great , despite some teething problems. Once one starts to network : magic things happen - meeting people on-line like Pat, Richy, Walter, John, and of course George Our company has a CRM system that is so complicated ( it was designed by GERMANS for GERMANS) , not to metion hideously expensive ( several hundred thousand US$) that no-one ever uses it except a couple of Germans: in fact we all hate it. If only we had set up something as simple as George has done we would all network far much more Cheers Peter Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: udornthara on November 03, 2011, 10:44:15 pm John, Sorry - I forgot that you did indeed send me good pics and that was very decent of you Also Walter : you did likewise , for which many thanks indeed I am second guessing when I say the following : I get the feeling you are at the stage in your collecting where you have a couple of dozen beautiful bottles and your collection has stayed at that level for the past couple of years, just as I was in 2006 - 2008 ( and the same with collecting matchboxes in my infant years) . But then suddenly the collecting bug will attack you and a couple of dozen grows to a couple of hundred as you develop a taste for certain styles and artists . At least that's what happened with me ! Beware ! Everyone : please don't think I begrudge sharing my DB with very little feedback - in fact just the opposite. I created the DB as a way to "spread the word" and the more copies that are circulated gratis the better. When I retire and if I ever have the time, and if Bill agrees, we will put the whole thing on line forever on Bill's website in a secure server so it will never be lost But having the DB on line vs in one's hard disc are two completely different matters until roaming download speeds increase . Time and time again I'm in a shop or talking with an artist and want to pull up a pic instantly from my lap top , which I can easily do from my DB . But not so easy on-line when a 3 MB pic takes a couple of minutes to download, and one wants to scan a dozen such pics to find the right one The DB is currently 7 GB ( it takes my super-fast lap top several seconds just to count the files) and by the time I finish it will be 15 - 20 GB . I will issue the next major update in late 2013 BTW : in the course of my time I have put out many feelers / hooks. Every so often one catches a big fish eg a) yesterday I got an email totally out of the blue from a painter called Zhang Lei ( CIPMA 260/261) . I met this guy in 2010 at a dinner with Wang Guanyu in Heng Shui, but did not realise that WGY is his UNCLE ! He is based in SH and holds exhibitions about once per year with full cataloge. Next week I am in SH so I will surely find time to meet him b) I have had a very sporadic correspondence with a French dealer in antique IPBs called Laurence Souksi. Suddenly he sends me an email just after returning from the ICSBS convention in Palm Beach with a load of useful feedback and network info ( and he may soon join the Forum) This Forum is all about NETWORKING . That's why it's so great , despite some teething problems. Once one starts to network : magic things happen - meeting people on-line like Pat, Richy, Walter, John, and of course George Our company has a CRM system that is so complicated ( it was designed by GERMANS for GERMANS) , not to metion hideously expensive ( several hundred thousand US$) that no-one ever uses it except a couple of Germans: in fact we all hate it. If only we had set up something as simple as George has done we would all network far much more Cheers Peter Hi Peter, In fact my initial purchase of IPS's in the mid 90's were my first bottles. I then started collecting non inside painted bottles, which now make up by far the largest part of my collection. A couple of my non inside painted have been posted on here. Cheers, John. Title: Re: Changes To The Forum / Private Category, and Boards Related To IP Bottles Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on April 14, 2012, 03:32:27 pm Peter,
Laurance Souksi is a lady of the female persuasion, Peter. She's very nice; I bought a wonderful Fuzhou lacquer snuff bottle from her a few years ago, when we were both at an Asian Antiques and Arts Fair in Brussels (June 2006, if I remember correctly). Best to all, Joey |